5 ms·

As one of the people behind this, and a PSF director I am here to answer any questions people might have.

by jnoller 14y ago

pm 14y ago
A question, out of curiosity and not hostile in any way: what's wrong with the current one?
- zalew 14y ago
  http://grokcode.com/746/dear-python-why-are-you-so-ugly/ http://grokcode.com/746/dear-python-why-are-you-so-ugly/
- jnoller 14y ago
  See: http://pythonorg-redesign.readthedocs.org/en/latest/#purpose http://pythonorg-redesign.readthedocs.org/en/latest/#purpose and http://pythonorg-redesign.readthedocs.org/en/latest/#current-issues http://pythonorg-redesign.readthedocs.org/en/latest/#current... - we outlined, as unbiased as possible, what we feel is fundamentally broken with the existing site.
  - pm 14y ago
    Indeed, I just read that, so I will follow up further. Is this predicated on feedback you've received or more on what the board feels is appropriate?
    - jnoller 14y ago
      Both, actually - we have some real designers on the team to help examine submissions, as well as people versed in IA/UX and accessibility. We (the board) have gotten lots of feedback over the years, and really want to make something more accessible, welcoming and modern. The team vetting the designs is not 100% board members, intentionally so - as I said, we have domain experts as well as psf members, it's a small team to keep the noise down, but the goals and thoughts are outlined in the RFP as much as possible.
      - scoot 14y ago
        "we have some real designers on the team" Problem solved!
        jnoller 14y ago
        Well, not really :) There's a difference between having designers, accessibility pros and others able to review the proposals and those that have the time to do the work. All of us are volunteers, and our time is limited.
      - deleted 14y ago
        [deleted]
- briancurtin 14y ago
  I'm currently "in charge" of posting most of the PSF related updates, like meeting minutes and resolutions. It's only a once-a-month thing, but it's a huge pain in the ass. To do this, I hop over to my SVN checkout of the site, make a change, build it locally, then `svn ci` my changes and hope they build on the real site and hope we both have the same versions of everything. I'm currently writing up a doc for a non-techie to take over that task and the steps to go from a clean machine to a functioning system that can make even simple typo fixes are barbaric.
its_so_on 14y ago
Edit: now I'm at -3. Still, I'm going to let this ride (not delete it), as even though it is not about the web site, I think my suggestion is serious and would benefit Python - i.e. get to the right audience here. I will also add that Python is my favorite language, and I hold it in a completely separate league from every other language I'm familiar with. Nothing else comes close. That said. "Python.org Redesign Request for Proposals" I was initially excited about the title - due to misinterpreting what 'redesign proposal' might read. I was awed as I started reading the first half of the first sentence of the linked article "The Python Software Foundation (PSF) is accepting proposals WOW for architecture, WOW design, development, and maintenance WOW ...of the primary web site. Oh. I really thought you were reaching out the community, really talking about the fundamental design of Python (how I misconstrued the HN title) even from people totally outside of python, in an unprecedented move. I thought you were really setting out to evaluate fundamental design decisions, that might eventually lead to a Python 5.0 that lives on the web and is attractive to whole swathes of novice and advanced developers who currently use PHP. I think such a widely advertised call for design proposals would benefit everyone. The websight redesign reachout is, of course, not really connected with such a thought.
- olavk 14y ago
  A redesign of the Python core language will not convert PHP users. Python is already much better than the PHP language. The benefit of PHP is that it is widely supported by hosting providers and because the default mode of web development (add some php tags to a html page) is extremely easy to get started with.
  - its_so_on 14y ago
    I think 'hosting providers' are a throwback to the late 90's and the last decade. These days anyone who needs more than a service like wordpress (and there are many, many people who are happy to use hosted blogging etc servies) is likely to have their own server instance. Are there really that many people who have access to 'only' PHP, but not whatever framework they would like? (from django to rails).
mvanveen 14y ago
Am I correct in believing that the scope of these documentation proposals is limited to the python standard library and runtime, and does not include the Python package index?
- jnoller 14y ago
  The RFP covers the design (UI/UX/IA) of the Python.org site and back end workflows. PyPI is a separate application in the whole site, and so it's back end code will not change, but it will probably adopt the new CSS/Style

As one of the people behind this, and a PSF director I am here to answer any questions people might have.

by jnoller 14y ago

As one of the people behind this, and a PSF director I am here to answer any questions people might have.

pm 14y ago

A question, out of curiosity and not hostile in any way: what's wrong with the current one?

zalew 14y ago
http://grokcode.com/746/dear-python-why-are-you-so-ugly/ http://grokcode.com/746/dear-python-why-are-you-so-ugly/
jnoller 14y ago
See: http://pythonorg-redesign.readthedocs.org/en/latest/#purpose http://pythonorg-redesign.readthedocs.org/en/latest/#purpose and http://pythonorg-redesign.readthedocs.org/en/latest/#current-issues http://pythonorg-redesign.readthedocs.org/en/latest/#current... - we outlined, as unbiased as possible, what we feel is fundamentally broken with the existing site.
- pm 14y ago
  Indeed, I just read that, so I will follow up further. Is this predicated on feedback you've received or more on what the board feels is appropriate?
  - jnoller 14y ago
    Both, actually - we have some real designers on the team to help examine submissions, as well as people versed in IA/UX and accessibility. We (the board) have gotten lots of feedback over the years, and really want to make something more accessible, welcoming and modern. The team vetting the designs is not 100% board members, intentionally so - as I said, we have domain experts as well as psf members, it's a small team to keep the noise down, but the goals and thoughts are outlined in the RFP as much as possible.
    - scoot 14y ago
      "we have some real designers on the team" Problem solved!
      - jnoller 14y ago
        Well, not really :) There's a difference between having designers, accessibility pros and others able to review the proposals and those that have the time to do the work. All of us are volunteers, and our time is limited.
    - deleted 14y ago
      [deleted]
briancurtin 14y ago
I'm currently "in charge" of posting most of the PSF related updates, like meeting minutes and resolutions. It's only a once-a-month thing, but it's a huge pain in the ass. To do this, I hop over to my SVN checkout of the site, make a change, build it locally, then `svn ci` my changes and hope they build on the real site and hope we both have the same versions of everything. I'm currently writing up a doc for a non-techie to take over that task and the steps to go from a clean machine to a functioning system that can make even simple typo fixes are barbaric.

its_so_on 14y ago

Edit: now I'm at -3. Still, I'm going to let this ride (not delete it), as even though it is not about the web site, I think my suggestion is serious and would benefit Python - i.e. get to the right audience here. I will also add that Python is my favorite language, and I hold it in a completely separate league from every other language I'm familiar with. Nothing else comes close. That said. "Python.org Redesign Request for Proposals" I was initially excited about the title - due to misinterpreting what 'redesign proposal' might read. I was awed as I started reading the first half of the first sentence of the linked article "The Python Software Foundation (PSF) is accepting proposals WOW for architecture, WOW design, development, and maintenance WOW ...of the primary web site. Oh. I really thought you were reaching out the community, really talking about the fundamental design of Python (how I misconstrued the HN title) even from people totally outside of python, in an unprecedented move. I thought you were really setting out to evaluate fundamental design decisions, that might eventually lead to a Python 5.0 that lives on the web and is attractive to whole swathes of novice and advanced developers who currently use PHP. I think such a widely advertised call for design proposals would benefit everyone. The websight redesign reachout is, of course, not really connected with such a thought.

olavk 14y ago
A redesign of the Python core language will not convert PHP users. Python is already much better than the PHP language. The benefit of PHP is that it is widely supported by hosting providers and because the default mode of web development (add some php tags to a html page) is extremely easy to get started with.
- its_so_on 14y ago
  I think 'hosting providers' are a throwback to the late 90's and the last decade. These days anyone who needs more than a service like wordpress (and there are many, many people who are happy to use hosted blogging etc servies) is likely to have their own server instance. Are there really that many people who have access to 'only' PHP, but not whatever framework they would like? (from django to rails).

mvanveen 14y ago

Am I correct in believing that the scope of these documentation proposals is limited to the python standard library and runtime, and does not include the Python package index?

jnoller 14y ago
The RFP covers the design (UI/UX/IA) of the Python.org site and back end workflows. PyPI is a separate application in the whole site, and so it's back end code will not change, but it will probably adopt the new CSS/Style