6 ms·

Python.org Redesign Request for Proposals

125 points by jnoller 14y ago

jnoller 14y ago
As one of the people behind this, and a PSF director I am here to answer any questions people might have.
- pm 14y ago
  A question, out of curiosity and not hostile in any way: what's wrong with the current one?
  - zalew 14y ago
    http://grokcode.com/746/dear-python-why-are-you-so-ugly/ http://grokcode.com/746/dear-python-why-are-you-so-ugly/
  - jnoller 14y ago
    See: http://pythonorg-redesign.readthedocs.org/en/latest/#purpose http://pythonorg-redesign.readthedocs.org/en/latest/#purpose and http://pythonorg-redesign.readthedocs.org/en/latest/#current-issues http://pythonorg-redesign.readthedocs.org/en/latest/#current... - we outlined, as unbiased as possible, what we feel is fundamentally broken with the existing site.
    - pm 14y ago
      Indeed, I just read that, so I will follow up further. Is this predicated on feedback you've received or more on what the board feels is appropriate?
      - jnoller 14y ago
        Both, actually - we have some real designers on the team to help examine submissions, as well as people versed in IA/UX and accessibility. We (the board) have gotten lots of feedback over the years, and really want to make something more accessible, welcoming and modern. The team vetting the designs is not 100% board members, intentionally so - as I said, we have domain experts as well as psf members, it's a small team to keep the noise down, but the goals and thoughts are outlined in the RFP as much as possible.
        scoot 14y ago
        "we have some real designers on the team" Problem solved!
        jnoller 14y ago
        Well, not really :) There's a difference between having designers, accessibility pros and others able to review the proposals and those that have the time to do the work. All of us are volunteers, and our time is limited.
        deleted 14y ago
        [deleted]
  - briancurtin 14y ago
    I'm currently "in charge" of posting most of the PSF related updates, like meeting minutes and resolutions. It's only a once-a-month thing, but it's a huge pain in the ass. To do this, I hop over to my SVN checkout of the site, make a change, build it locally, then `svn ci` my changes and hope they build on the real site and hope we both have the same versions of everything. I'm currently writing up a doc for a non-techie to take over that task and the steps to go from a clean machine to a functioning system that can make even simple typo fixes are barbaric.
- its_so_on 14y ago
  Edit: now I'm at -3. Still, I'm going to let this ride (not delete it), as even though it is not about the web site, I think my suggestion is serious and would benefit Python - i.e. get to the right audience here. I will also add that Python is my favorite language, and I hold it in a completely separate league from every other language I'm familiar with. Nothing else comes close. That said. "Python.org Redesign Request for Proposals" I was initially excited about the title - due to misinterpreting what 'redesign proposal' might read. I was awed as I started reading the first half of the first sentence of the linked article "The Python Software Foundation (PSF) is accepting proposals WOW for architecture, WOW design, development, and maintenance WOW ...of the primary web site. Oh. I really thought you were reaching out the community, really talking about the fundamental design of Python (how I misconstrued the HN title) even from people totally outside of python, in an unprecedented move. I thought you were really setting out to evaluate fundamental design decisions, that might eventually lead to a Python 5.0 that lives on the web and is attractive to whole swathes of novice and advanced developers who currently use PHP. I think such a widely advertised call for design proposals would benefit everyone. The websight redesign reachout is, of course, not really connected with such a thought.
  - olavk 14y ago
    A redesign of the Python core language will not convert PHP users. Python is already much better than the PHP language. The benefit of PHP is that it is widely supported by hosting providers and because the default mode of web development (add some php tags to a html page) is extremely easy to get started with.
    - its_so_on 14y ago
      I think 'hosting providers' are a throwback to the late 90's and the last decade. These days anyone who needs more than a service like wordpress (and there are many, many people who are happy to use hosted blogging etc servies) is likely to have their own server instance. Are there really that many people who have access to 'only' PHP, but not whatever framework they would like? (from django to rails).
- mvanveen 14y ago
  Am I correct in believing that the scope of these documentation proposals is limited to the python standard library and runtime, and does not include the Python package index?
  - jnoller 14y ago
    The RFP covers the design (UI/UX/IA) of the Python.org site and back end workflows. PyPI is a separate application in the whole site, and so it's back end code will not change, but it will probably adopt the new CSS/Style
loceng 14y ago
Good luck!
- jnoller 14y ago
  Yeah, we'll need it - it's been a long time in coming.
zalew 14y ago
I don't mean to hijack the thread, but (a bit) relevant: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/django-developers/2Xy7SZAOc7E https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/django-developers/2X... "Redesign of djangoproject.com" good luck for both, can't wait.
hising 14y ago
One thing that would really make the website work better is to make pages like http://docs.python.org/library/stdtypes.html http://docs.python.org/library/stdtypes.html hierarchical with an overview and one or two sub levels so each function gets its own page, making it easier to find via search (The Google) and do dynamic linking from IDE:s or whatever if the url routing were set up smart. Today when you search for 'random.choice python' you get to the random front page with 20+ random functions forcing you to first click on the google search result (probably with a lower CTR than if you have had the function name in the title) and then when entering the docs page hit CTRL+F and do a page search for 'random.choice'. That would make my life easier, and annotated documentation, preferably with some kind of "like"-functionality pushing the good answers up. I do get however that some people like to have the full spec for all random functions in one page...
- jnoller 14y ago
  See: https://twitter.com/ncoghlan_dev/status/205290363437580289 https://twitter.com/ncoghlan_dev/status/205290363437580289 :)
- Alex3917 14y ago
  The first thing I do when learning any piece of technology is putting all the docs into a mindmap, e.g. here is one I made the other day for Jinja2: http://www.alexkrupp.com/Jinja%20docs.html http://www.alexkrupp.com/Jinja%20docs.html FreeMind .mm file: http://www.alexkrupp.com/Jinja%20docs.mm http://www.alexkrupp.com/Jinja%20docs.mm Ideally the HTML of the Python docs should be structured in such a way that the all the built-in functions, string functions, regex functions, etc. can be dumped into a mindmap automatically each time the documentation is changed.
  - anonymousDan 14y ago
    I like it! How did you create the jinja html? Did you first create the .mm and then export to html somehow? Or did you have to create it manually?
    - 14y ago
neonkiwi 14y ago
> Content must be editable offline, when there is no network availability. I'm curious to know why this is a requirement for python.org? I mean, edit contention is an area one has to deal with even if editing with a network connection, so there isn't an enormous technical burden associated with offline editing, but this does require more effort.
- jnoller 14y ago
  Many site contributors prefer offline editing - such as checking out a repo and performing the work, then submitting to online editing. Additionally, the workflow of certain sub sites, such as the jobs board require a fair amount of offline vetting prior to content going live. Essentially, we have to serve two styles of workflow - we have both types of people wanting to contribute content today, and we are attempting to fulfill their workflow needs. A 100% online CMS does not do that.
- ajdecon 14y ago
  I'd guess that there are current website editors (especially writing docs) whose existing workflows include a lot of offline time. Poor Internet connections at home, lots of time traveling and working on airplanes, vacations to beautiful places with no Internet...
  - jnoller 14y ago
    Yup, exactly.
mvanveen 14y ago
This is definitely a shameless plug, but I thought it might be worth mentioning here that my current side project is a MIT-licensed Python documentation API called "Python Docs," available at: http://github.com/mvanveen/docs http://github.com/mvanveen/docs . The goal is to leverage static analysis as much as possible to provide an intuitive API for Python documentation primitives. So far I have used the project to power a code browsing interface that I recently started working on, but I think that others could find the project really useful.
neovive 14y ago
Best of luck with the redesign. I recently started learning Python and finally realize what I've been missing for so many years. I'm not sure of the intended audience of python.org (new users vs. experienced), but as a brand new Python user, the current website is filled with lots of great information, but is a bit intimidating. I think the Python language really sells itself and it would be nice to see some simple examples on the homepage as is done on the NodeJS page (e.g. http://nodejs.org/ http://nodejs.org/). Reading through some of the posts on Guido van Rossum's blog was also very inspiring ("Python in the Scientific World", "The depth and breadth of Python"). It's great to see a BDFL so actively involved. There are so many great stories about how Python is used successfully across in so many industries and among well-known brands. It would be great to see more of this on the main page.
- jnoller 14y ago
  we actually put a lot of thought into the target audiences: http://pythonorg-redesign.readthedocs.org/en/latest/#audiences http://pythonorg-redesign.readthedocs.org/en/latest/#audienc... - and I concur, a frontpage without a language example, or slide show of examples is almost a non starter for me
  - neovive 14y ago
    Excellent -- the "Potential users" summary fits me perfectly. Great work on the rfp. If you need any perspectives or feedback from a very new Python user as you move on in the process, feel free to send me a message. I would be more than willing help.
- jinushaun 14y ago
  The current python.org homepage is a mess geared towards developers that already know Python. Compare that with ruby-lang.org and nodejs.org, which both seem geared towards promoting adoption of the language by newbs. They're organised with a clear information hierarchy that makes it easy to find the download button, get started on tutorials and find docs. Python.org, on the other hand is a jumble of text. The download section is hard to find. The boxes in the right column are more prominent than the boxes in the left column, even though the content of the left column is arguably more important. The middle section is dominated by news that is, for all intents and purposes, worthless to me. There is no visual separation between when the description stops and the news section starts. Unlike nodejs.org, there is no shout-out to companies that are using Python or popular Python libraries, etc. The homepage needs to answer the 5 W's: who is using Python, what is Python, where can I download it, when is the next release, and why should I learn Python? And don't forgot how: How can I get started? This is basic information design.
krschultz 14y ago
<shameless plug> A couple years back I was working at Bug Labs and we relied heavily on the Openembedded project. We contributed source code patches as you would expect, but one unique contribution was having our designer make a new logo for Openembedded. You can see it on their website today. </shameless plug> This doesn't seem to occur to people very often, but if your company is relying on an open source project, source code patches are not the only way to contribute back. Can you spare some time from your designer? Help out with a logo or website design work. Do you have a doc writer? We all joke about RTFM, but if there is no manual that doesn't help much. There are some things that developers don't necessarily want to do, so those areas often lack on open source projects based on volunteers. A company using their resources to fill in some of the gaps helps a lot. I also don't understand why designers will compete on 99designs but don't seem to contribute to open source that often. If you are trying to break into the industry by showcasing your work, why prefer the 1 in 30 odds of having your design chosen in a crowd sourcing competition over actually helping out an existing project?
- patio11 14y ago
  Some programmers passionately believe that contributing to OSS is status-increasing, perhaps enough to be a self-fulfilling prophecy. I have yet to meet a designer who believes this. There exist UX paths by which contributing to OSS via code is easy, obviously wanted, and generates warm fuzzies. The fork-and-go experience of adding one marginal feature to a gem for Ruby then sending a pull request feels like ponies and sunshine every step of the way. By contrast, there exists no infrastructure or UX to support designers contributing in the same way. You probably have to send an email to a project maintainer. Try sending ten of those: report how sunny your ponies feel as a result. OSS projects, in the main, very aggressively signal that they do not care about design. Just having a logo makes it look like you have super-anomalous levels of care relative to OSS. Designers pick up on hints like "your web presence is a default Github page" and "your logo was created by a programmer in MsPaint" to decide that their talents are probably better applied elsewhere, where they will be valued. Also, 99designs will pay more designers more money today than entire communities of OSS developers will this year. Even starving artists can do the math.
gosub 14y ago
One other thing they should improve is the search function in the documentation: http://docs.python.org/ http://docs.python.org/ The first relevant result for searching "string concatenation" is around the 20th place. http://docs.python.org/search.html?q=string+concatenation http://docs.python.org/search.html?q=string+concatenation
- benhoyt 14y ago
  Funny -- I've used Python and its online docs for many years and never used their search, I always use Google. :-) Google search with site:docs.python.org does a somewhat better job: http://www.google.com/#hl=en&sclient=psy-ab&q=string+concatenation+site:docs.python.org http://www.google.com/#hl=en&sclient=psy-ab&q=string...
- Eventh 14y ago
  Part of the problem is the use of Sphinx and its search engine (at least this was the case a year ago), where searching happens client-side in JavaScript. This limits how complex the search engine can be, before it is to slow or require to much data to download. Last time I looked it had a simple inverse index with a Porter stemmer and limited ranking of results. This is great for documentation of most projects as it can be supported with only html+css+js, without a need for a web framework and hosting. But for the documentation of a major programming language I think something more advanced is expected.
- jsprinkles 14y ago
  The documentation for Python is mediocre at best, which is a wart of how documenting Python works. I think the newer Sphynx site is actually a regression from what they had in the Python 2.5 days.
jwallaceparker 14y ago
The Python website certainly doesn't have a welcoming feel to it. A redesign will be a great move.
- lmm 14y ago
  Strongly disagree. The python website has always felt like one of the last bastions of function over form; it's not slick, but the content you actually want is right there without any distractions. If it turns into one of these 30%-margin, rounded-corners sites with half the text I'll be sad. Maybe I'm just getting old.
obtu 14y ago
Looking at the requirements, particularly l10n and the REST API for editing (which rules out compilers, unless the API server operates at a different privilege level), this will have to be solved by something like a CMS. Except for the offline editing requirement, which makes something DVCS-backed necessary. Anyway, it will be a good showcase for whichever stack is chosen.
akie 14y ago
I'm wondering if it's really a good idea to have such wildly differing requirements be fulfilled with one just proposal. Let me elaborate: you're asking a potential bidder to be fluent in information architecture, and back-end development, and systems architecture, and design. Those four disciplines are so far apart that I would be very curious to see if you can select one company that does all of them equally well. And if you do happen to find one, it would be interesting to see if they really can deliver top-notch quality in all of them. If you ask me, you'd be better of recruiting a separate design, possibly accompanied with an appropriate information architecture, and then start to think about how to do the back-end development and systems architecture. Not only is this a separation of concerns (hooray!), I also think it will get you a bigger pool of applicants, they will also be more likely to be world class in their field. No-one is world class in all those fields at the same time, and trying to find one company that is will most likely get you an 'average' result in at least one area.
- jnoller 14y ago
  Thank you - I don't disagree with you, honestly though, the overhead of trying to manage those separate entities will quickly outstrip the time and ability the volunteers who are evaluating and managing this process have. If a given company feels it is lacking in any single area, I encourage them to include other specialists in that area as part of their bid - for example, if they're awesome back end designers, but can not do front-end design, I would expect them to find a trusted designer to work with them as part of the bid. Even though this effort is funded, the management of it, the evaluation of the designs/etc is all volunteer based. We can not chase multiple contractors :( That said, the design people/firms I spoke to about this seemed to understand this and stated they would do as I outlined above.
pbreit 14y ago
Might this include some improvements to the dreadfully designed Sphinx?
- jnoller 14y ago
  Sphinx is a project of it's own.
- akuchling 14y ago
  The RFP says "The proposal may feature a retheming of http://docs.python.org http://docs.python.org but need not do so," so that depends on how ambitious the proposers are. The focus of the RFP is definitely www.python.org.
illumen 14y ago
Plone should do something for this, it sounds very well suited? Any plone people about? I guess moinmoin/trac too :) What about some Django or pyramid teams? People from the PSF will probably also put in a proposal, since lots are web people. Which ones? A top agency could probably charge at least $1 million for something like this. So I doubt there will be a top result... unless they do it pro bono. Which would let USA companies do it as a tax right off if I'm not mistaken? Maybe one of the sponsors will put in a bid: Facebook, Google, or Dropbox? All very exciting. Or perhaps some wunderkid-wizard-wonk will hack tirelessly on their keyboard+wacom - powered only by a will to provide pythonistas everywhere a great website. They will about face everything with a fresh open approach, that turns the ideas upside down and puts code and projects first, doing an edgy remix of pypi, that integrates an IDE console inside the website (or coming up with an actual good idea) that makes people think "why weren't all programming websites like this already?". They'll do all this before the submission period is even up, having gathered feedback and evolved their idea consulting tens of 1000s of pythonists, djangonaughts, and people from other communities. Time magazine will have a picture of them next to the new python.org with the headline in all caps... "EPIC".
srbproject 14y ago
In something as complicated and as has as much information as a an open source project does, the need for a clean, organized, thoughtful interface plan/design is paramount. The quicker the information is to find and the more digestible it is, the quicker the project will be adopted and built upon... in theory of course!

125 points by jnoller 14y ago

jnoller 14y ago

As one of the people behind this, and a PSF director I am here to answer any questions people might have.

pm 14y ago
A question, out of curiosity and not hostile in any way: what's wrong with the current one?
- zalew 14y ago
  http://grokcode.com/746/dear-python-why-are-you-so-ugly/ http://grokcode.com/746/dear-python-why-are-you-so-ugly/
- jnoller 14y ago
  See: http://pythonorg-redesign.readthedocs.org/en/latest/#purpose http://pythonorg-redesign.readthedocs.org/en/latest/#purpose and http://pythonorg-redesign.readthedocs.org/en/latest/#current-issues http://pythonorg-redesign.readthedocs.org/en/latest/#current... - we outlined, as unbiased as possible, what we feel is fundamentally broken with the existing site.
  - pm 14y ago
    Indeed, I just read that, so I will follow up further. Is this predicated on feedback you've received or more on what the board feels is appropriate?
    - jnoller 14y ago
      Both, actually - we have some real designers on the team to help examine submissions, as well as people versed in IA/UX and accessibility. We (the board) have gotten lots of feedback over the years, and really want to make something more accessible, welcoming and modern. The team vetting the designs is not 100% board members, intentionally so - as I said, we have domain experts as well as psf members, it's a small team to keep the noise down, but the goals and thoughts are outlined in the RFP as much as possible.
      - scoot 14y ago
        "we have some real designers on the team" Problem solved!
        jnoller 14y ago
        Well, not really :) There's a difference between having designers, accessibility pros and others able to review the proposals and those that have the time to do the work. All of us are volunteers, and our time is limited.
      - deleted 14y ago
        [deleted]
- briancurtin 14y ago
  I'm currently "in charge" of posting most of the PSF related updates, like meeting minutes and resolutions. It's only a once-a-month thing, but it's a huge pain in the ass. To do this, I hop over to my SVN checkout of the site, make a change, build it locally, then `svn ci` my changes and hope they build on the real site and hope we both have the same versions of everything. I'm currently writing up a doc for a non-techie to take over that task and the steps to go from a clean machine to a functioning system that can make even simple typo fixes are barbaric.
its_so_on 14y ago
Edit: now I'm at -3. Still, I'm going to let this ride (not delete it), as even though it is not about the web site, I think my suggestion is serious and would benefit Python - i.e. get to the right audience here. I will also add that Python is my favorite language, and I hold it in a completely separate league from every other language I'm familiar with. Nothing else comes close. That said. "Python.org Redesign Request for Proposals" I was initially excited about the title - due to misinterpreting what 'redesign proposal' might read. I was awed as I started reading the first half of the first sentence of the linked article "The Python Software Foundation (PSF) is accepting proposals WOW for architecture, WOW design, development, and maintenance WOW ...of the primary web site. Oh. I really thought you were reaching out the community, really talking about the fundamental design of Python (how I misconstrued the HN title) even from people totally outside of python, in an unprecedented move. I thought you were really setting out to evaluate fundamental design decisions, that might eventually lead to a Python 5.0 that lives on the web and is attractive to whole swathes of novice and advanced developers who currently use PHP. I think such a widely advertised call for design proposals would benefit everyone. The websight redesign reachout is, of course, not really connected with such a thought.
- olavk 14y ago
  A redesign of the Python core language will not convert PHP users. Python is already much better than the PHP language. The benefit of PHP is that it is widely supported by hosting providers and because the default mode of web development (add some php tags to a html page) is extremely easy to get started with.
  - its_so_on 14y ago
    I think 'hosting providers' are a throwback to the late 90's and the last decade. These days anyone who needs more than a service like wordpress (and there are many, many people who are happy to use hosted blogging etc servies) is likely to have their own server instance. Are there really that many people who have access to 'only' PHP, but not whatever framework they would like? (from django to rails).
mvanveen 14y ago
Am I correct in believing that the scope of these documentation proposals is limited to the python standard library and runtime, and does not include the Python package index?
- jnoller 14y ago
  The RFP covers the design (UI/UX/IA) of the Python.org site and back end workflows. PyPI is a separate application in the whole site, and so it's back end code will not change, but it will probably adopt the new CSS/Style

loceng 14y ago

Good luck!

jnoller 14y ago
Yeah, we'll need it - it's been a long time in coming.

zalew 14y ago

I don't mean to hijack the thread, but (a bit) relevant: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/django-developers/2Xy7SZAOc7E https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/django-developers/2X... "Redesign of djangoproject.com" good luck for both, can't wait.

hising 14y ago

One thing that would really make the website work better is to make pages like http://docs.python.org/library/stdtypes.html http://docs.python.org/library/stdtypes.html hierarchical with an overview and one or two sub levels so each function gets its own page, making it easier to find via search (The Google) and do dynamic linking from IDE:s or whatever if the url routing were set up smart. Today when you search for 'random.choice python' you get to the random front page with 20+ random functions forcing you to first click on the google search result (probably with a lower CTR than if you have had the function name in the title) and then when entering the docs page hit CTRL+F and do a page search for 'random.choice'. That would make my life easier, and annotated documentation, preferably with some kind of "like"-functionality pushing the good answers up. I do get however that some people like to have the full spec for all random functions in one page...

jnoller 14y ago
See: https://twitter.com/ncoghlan_dev/status/205290363437580289 https://twitter.com/ncoghlan_dev/status/205290363437580289 :)
Alex3917 14y ago
The first thing I do when learning any piece of technology is putting all the docs into a mindmap, e.g. here is one I made the other day for Jinja2: http://www.alexkrupp.com/Jinja%20docs.html http://www.alexkrupp.com/Jinja%20docs.html FreeMind .mm file: http://www.alexkrupp.com/Jinja%20docs.mm http://www.alexkrupp.com/Jinja%20docs.mm Ideally the HTML of the Python docs should be structured in such a way that the all the built-in functions, string functions, regex functions, etc. can be dumped into a mindmap automatically each time the documentation is changed.
- anonymousDan 14y ago
  I like it! How did you create the jinja html? Did you first create the .mm and then export to html somehow? Or did you have to create it manually?
  - 14y ago

neonkiwi 14y ago

> Content must be editable offline, when there is no network availability. I'm curious to know why this is a requirement for python.org? I mean, edit contention is an area one has to deal with even if editing with a network connection, so there isn't an enormous technical burden associated with offline editing, but this does require more effort.

jnoller 14y ago
Many site contributors prefer offline editing - such as checking out a repo and performing the work, then submitting to online editing. Additionally, the workflow of certain sub sites, such as the jobs board require a fair amount of offline vetting prior to content going live. Essentially, we have to serve two styles of workflow - we have both types of people wanting to contribute content today, and we are attempting to fulfill their workflow needs. A 100% online CMS does not do that.
ajdecon 14y ago
I'd guess that there are current website editors (especially writing docs) whose existing workflows include a lot of offline time. Poor Internet connections at home, lots of time traveling and working on airplanes, vacations to beautiful places with no Internet...
- jnoller 14y ago
  Yup, exactly.

mvanveen 14y ago

This is definitely a shameless plug, but I thought it might be worth mentioning here that my current side project is a MIT-licensed Python documentation API called "Python Docs," available at: http://github.com/mvanveen/docs http://github.com/mvanveen/docs . The goal is to leverage static analysis as much as possible to provide an intuitive API for Python documentation primitives. So far I have used the project to power a code browsing interface that I recently started working on, but I think that others could find the project really useful.

neovive 14y ago

Best of luck with the redesign. I recently started learning Python and finally realize what I've been missing for so many years. I'm not sure of the intended audience of python.org (new users vs. experienced), but as a brand new Python user, the current website is filled with lots of great information, but is a bit intimidating. I think the Python language really sells itself and it would be nice to see some simple examples on the homepage as is done on the NodeJS page (e.g. http://nodejs.org/ http://nodejs.org/). Reading through some of the posts on Guido van Rossum's blog was also very inspiring ("Python in the Scientific World", "The depth and breadth of Python"). It's great to see a BDFL so actively involved. There are so many great stories about how Python is used successfully across in so many industries and among well-known brands. It would be great to see more of this on the main page.

jnoller 14y ago
we actually put a lot of thought into the target audiences: http://pythonorg-redesign.readthedocs.org/en/latest/#audiences http://pythonorg-redesign.readthedocs.org/en/latest/#audienc... - and I concur, a frontpage without a language example, or slide show of examples is almost a non starter for me
- neovive 14y ago
  Excellent -- the "Potential users" summary fits me perfectly. Great work on the rfp. If you need any perspectives or feedback from a very new Python user as you move on in the process, feel free to send me a message. I would be more than willing help.
jinushaun 14y ago
The current python.org homepage is a mess geared towards developers that already know Python. Compare that with ruby-lang.org and nodejs.org, which both seem geared towards promoting adoption of the language by newbs. They're organised with a clear information hierarchy that makes it easy to find the download button, get started on tutorials and find docs. Python.org, on the other hand is a jumble of text. The download section is hard to find. The boxes in the right column are more prominent than the boxes in the left column, even though the content of the left column is arguably more important. The middle section is dominated by news that is, for all intents and purposes, worthless to me. There is no visual separation between when the description stops and the news section starts. Unlike nodejs.org, there is no shout-out to companies that are using Python or popular Python libraries, etc. The homepage needs to answer the 5 W's: who is using Python, what is Python, where can I download it, when is the next release, and why should I learn Python? And don't forgot how: How can I get started? This is basic information design.

krschultz 14y ago

<shameless plug> A couple years back I was working at Bug Labs and we relied heavily on the Openembedded project. We contributed source code patches as you would expect, but one unique contribution was having our designer make a new logo for Openembedded. You can see it on their website today. </shameless plug> This doesn't seem to occur to people very often, but if your company is relying on an open source project, source code patches are not the only way to contribute back. Can you spare some time from your designer? Help out with a logo or website design work. Do you have a doc writer? We all joke about RTFM, but if there is no manual that doesn't help much. There are some things that developers don't necessarily want to do, so those areas often lack on open source projects based on volunteers. A company using their resources to fill in some of the gaps helps a lot. I also don't understand why designers will compete on 99designs but don't seem to contribute to open source that often. If you are trying to break into the industry by showcasing your work, why prefer the 1 in 30 odds of having your design chosen in a crowd sourcing competition over actually helping out an existing project?

patio11 14y ago
Some programmers passionately believe that contributing to OSS is status-increasing, perhaps enough to be a self-fulfilling prophecy. I have yet to meet a designer who believes this. There exist UX paths by which contributing to OSS via code is easy, obviously wanted, and generates warm fuzzies. The fork-and-go experience of adding one marginal feature to a gem for Ruby then sending a pull request feels like ponies and sunshine every step of the way. By contrast, there exists no infrastructure or UX to support designers contributing in the same way. You probably have to send an email to a project maintainer. Try sending ten of those: report how sunny your ponies feel as a result. OSS projects, in the main, very aggressively signal that they do not care about design. Just having a logo makes it look like you have super-anomalous levels of care relative to OSS. Designers pick up on hints like "your web presence is a default Github page" and "your logo was created by a programmer in MsPaint" to decide that their talents are probably better applied elsewhere, where they will be valued. Also, 99designs will pay more designers more money today than entire communities of OSS developers will this year. Even starving artists can do the math.

gosub 14y ago

One other thing they should improve is the search function in the documentation: http://docs.python.org/ http://docs.python.org/ The first relevant result for searching "string concatenation" is around the 20th place. http://docs.python.org/search.html?q=string+concatenation http://docs.python.org/search.html?q=string+concatenation

benhoyt 14y ago
Funny -- I've used Python and its online docs for many years and never used their search, I always use Google. :-) Google search with site:docs.python.org does a somewhat better job: http://www.google.com/#hl=en&sclient=psy-ab&q=string+concatenation+site:docs.python.org http://www.google.com/#hl=en&sclient=psy-ab&q=string...
Eventh 14y ago
Part of the problem is the use of Sphinx and its search engine (at least this was the case a year ago), where searching happens client-side in JavaScript. This limits how complex the search engine can be, before it is to slow or require to much data to download. Last time I looked it had a simple inverse index with a Porter stemmer and limited ranking of results. This is great for documentation of most projects as it can be supported with only html+css+js, without a need for a web framework and hosting. But for the documentation of a major programming language I think something more advanced is expected.
jsprinkles 14y ago
The documentation for Python is mediocre at best, which is a wart of how documenting Python works. I think the newer Sphynx site is actually a regression from what they had in the Python 2.5 days.

jwallaceparker 14y ago

The Python website certainly doesn't have a welcoming feel to it. A redesign will be a great move.

lmm 14y ago
Strongly disagree. The python website has always felt like one of the last bastions of function over form; it's not slick, but the content you actually want is right there without any distractions. If it turns into one of these 30%-margin, rounded-corners sites with half the text I'll be sad. Maybe I'm just getting old.

obtu 14y ago

Looking at the requirements, particularly l10n and the REST API for editing (which rules out compilers, unless the API server operates at a different privilege level), this will have to be solved by something like a CMS. Except for the offline editing requirement, which makes something DVCS-backed necessary. Anyway, it will be a good showcase for whichever stack is chosen.

akie 14y ago

I'm wondering if it's really a good idea to have such wildly differing requirements be fulfilled with one just proposal. Let me elaborate: you're asking a potential bidder to be fluent in information architecture, and back-end development, and systems architecture, and design. Those four disciplines are so far apart that I would be very curious to see if you can select one company that does all of them equally well. And if you do happen to find one, it would be interesting to see if they really can deliver top-notch quality in all of them. If you ask me, you'd be better of recruiting a separate design, possibly accompanied with an appropriate information architecture, and then start to think about how to do the back-end development and systems architecture. Not only is this a separation of concerns (hooray!), I also think it will get you a bigger pool of applicants, they will also be more likely to be world class in their field. No-one is world class in all those fields at the same time, and trying to find one company that is will most likely get you an 'average' result in at least one area.

jnoller 14y ago
Thank you - I don't disagree with you, honestly though, the overhead of trying to manage those separate entities will quickly outstrip the time and ability the volunteers who are evaluating and managing this process have. If a given company feels it is lacking in any single area, I encourage them to include other specialists in that area as part of their bid - for example, if they're awesome back end designers, but can not do front-end design, I would expect them to find a trusted designer to work with them as part of the bid. Even though this effort is funded, the management of it, the evaluation of the designs/etc is all volunteer based. We can not chase multiple contractors :( That said, the design people/firms I spoke to about this seemed to understand this and stated they would do as I outlined above.

pbreit 14y ago

Might this include some improvements to the dreadfully designed Sphinx?

jnoller 14y ago
Sphinx is a project of it's own.
akuchling 14y ago
The RFP says "The proposal may feature a retheming of http://docs.python.org http://docs.python.org but need not do so," so that depends on how ambitious the proposers are. The focus of the RFP is definitely www.python.org.

illumen 14y ago

Plone should do something for this, it sounds very well suited? Any plone people about? I guess moinmoin/trac too :) What about some Django or pyramid teams? People from the PSF will probably also put in a proposal, since lots are web people. Which ones? A top agency could probably charge at least $1 million for something like this. So I doubt there will be a top result... unless they do it pro bono. Which would let USA companies do it as a tax right off if I'm not mistaken? Maybe one of the sponsors will put in a bid: Facebook, Google, or Dropbox? All very exciting. Or perhaps some wunderkid-wizard-wonk will hack tirelessly on their keyboard+wacom - powered only by a will to provide pythonistas everywhere a great website. They will about face everything with a fresh open approach, that turns the ideas upside down and puts code and projects first, doing an edgy remix of pypi, that integrates an IDE console inside the website (or coming up with an actual good idea) that makes people think "why weren't all programming websites like this already?". They'll do all this before the submission period is even up, having gathered feedback and evolved their idea consulting tens of 1000s of pythonists, djangonaughts, and people from other communities. Time magazine will have a picture of them next to the new python.org with the headline in all caps... "EPIC".

srbproject 14y ago

In something as complicated and as has as much information as a an open source project does, the need for a clean, organized, thoughtful interface plan/design is paramount. The quicker the information is to find and the more digestible it is, the quicker the project will be adopted and built upon... in theory of course!