5 ms·

I'm certainly not Gen Z or a Millenial, but I do not subscribe to the notion that solidity or the quality of life your parents have experiences is unachievable

by kleiba 3y ago

I'm certainly not Gen Z or a Millenial, but I do not subscribe to the notion that solidity or the quality of life your parents have experiences is unachievable for today's generation any more. There are tons of things that are much better in today's life when compared to a generation ago. Everything always changes, but it's usually that some things get better and others get worse. On average, though, we're still on an upward slope, if you ask me.

ddorian43 3y ago
But he is in Canada. The wages suck, real estate is insane, taxes are high.
- kleiba 3y ago
  Well, what could his parents afford when they were his age? Also, check out how many North American places are mentioned in this list: https://www.thestreet.com/personal-finance/cost-and-affordability-of-homes-around-the-world#gid=ci02b87d3ae00027d5&pid=moscow-sh https://www.thestreet.com/personal-finance/cost-and-affordab...
  - corry 3y ago
    Sorry for the TikTok link [1], but worth seeing this animation of income to housing price since the 1980s. To make matters worse, what's not shown is also the rising tax on that income. Then factor in student debt, which is not as severe as the US but is a big drain. Then factor in the record levels of immigration of the last 5 years or so. Of course offsetting all of this are other big improvements in QoL - better medicine, healthcare, etc. Also, while interest rates are high compared to last 10 years, historically they aren't crazy. But even 'not crazy' interest rates vs. this disparity in income vs housing prices. So definite 'agreed' to you and the other posters who brought up it's not a single-variable issue. But seeing this, and having a remote-friendly job, wouldn't you rather go live on a beach in Costa Rica for a few years? [1] https://www.tiktok.com/@thebeautyofdata/video/7314767397624352032?lang=en https://www.tiktok.com/@thebeautyofdata/video/73147673976243...
    - kleiba 3y ago
      Thanks for a well-balanced reply! Let's not forget that interest rates were not just relatively lower, they were actually really low just a few years ago. They have gone up since but I agree they still aren't high, especially compared to what my parents got from the banks when they financed their house. A lot of my family are builders, and when you talk to them, the old adage "they don't make them any more how they used to" is said with a "thank goodness" attached to them. In other words: they build quality has also continually gone up since the last generation built their homes and that explains a part of the increase in cost (of course, there are other factors). I do agree with your notion that there have been a number of big improvements in the QoL. That said, though, a house is certainly the main expenditure most people ever do in their lifetime. In other words, if the one item that's orders of magnitudes more expensive that most everything else you'll ever buy in your life, the effect of that price increase is especially painful - and especially hard to compensate through savings in other places. > wouldn't you rather go live on a beach in Costa Rica for a few years? I personally wouldn't but, and I wonder if most people would love the idea of doing that but when it comes to actually pulling through would chose not to?! That said, I was lucky enough to live parts of my life on three different continents of this planet - while for my parents, when they were my age, international travel was still something exotic and very expensive.
  - tharmas 3y ago
    >Well, what could his parents afford when they were his age? [Article is from 2019, before Trudeau boosted the Immigration numbers to astronomical numbers] "In 1971, those in the top 20 per cent by income had a home-ownership rate approximately 10 per cent higher than those in the bottom fifth. This difference has grown severalfold in the ensuing decades. Millennials are entering home ownership in small numbers and later than their forebears: 50 per cent of millennials own a home today compared with 55 per cent of people their age in 1981." https://thetyee.ca/Analysis/2019/08/01/Gov-Created-Housing-Crisis-Now-Fix/ https://thetyee.ca/Analysis/2019/08/01/Gov-Created-Housing-C... The housing situation in Canada (not just Toronto and Vancouver) is on a scale unlike any other developed country.
    - ethbr1 3y ago
      > The housing situation in Canada (not just Toronto and Vancouver) is on a scale unlike any other developed country. Australia? https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-67723760 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-67723760 Maybe it's a thing with British colonies...
      - red-iron-pine 3y ago
        more like inhabitable wastelands where much of the land can't support large quantities of people, which leads to a handful of large cities without much space. I've worked outside in both places, -40C and +40C. there is a reason most of the population is in a few expensive places.
chgs 3y ago
It’s all housing. This doesn’t apply to the average HN millionaire in 600k a year but for normal people to get the life affordable on a single average salary in the 90s requires a double salary earning far more. But sure you’ve got Netflix rather than cable tv so I guess that offsets it.
- eastbound 3y ago
  But that’s the thing: People are buying those houses. They are not inaffordable. What we’re seeing is rather: Jobs get more and more advanced, you don’t only need to do IT, you need to be in the right sector of IT. Each new generation discovers/invents a new scale of wealth, no-one could have imagined in 2000 that developers would be paid more than $120k, but $600k is the new average in the right jobs. I’ve made a blast as a Java/Full-stack developer in my generation, leaving hairdressers of my city in the dust in terms of purchasing power. But in 10 years? I’ll still be as rich, but AI developers will earn 10x more than me. It scares me to death, not for myself, but how can normal people compete with a normal job, when there are more and more internet millionaires, dropshipping lords, bitcoins kingpins, youtube magnates and AI clerics who can stomach x2 on food prices and x10 on housing?
graypegg 3y ago
I do think people tend to overblow things because of generational miscommunication. But... I'm 25, and won't be owning a home anytime soon. And not for lack of trying! In Canada, there's a first time homebuyers saving account, which I load up when I can. But food is quite expensive. And so is rent. I had to move (Toronto => Montréal) because I couldn't afford 2500$/m there. I think people hear that, and attribute that the costs are directly related to me being "too picky" or overspending, unlike people in the past. But I was living in an area of Toronto a parent grew up in. In the city. Food has definitely gotten more expensive in my own lifetime. I tend to be pretty boring with meals I make, so seeing the normal grocery bill tick up from 40$ to 55~60$ has been a bit of a shock, despite buying the same things. I look at my home buyer savings account, and compare to the housing market around here in Montréal which is "good" compared to most of canada, and I see lots of 100k$ down, 750k$ units. Most of which will eat up my savings account with the down payment. This is while working on a tech worker salary. That puts me in a lucky category, for which I'm infinitely grateful for, it's a lot more stressful for others. I don't really want to pay a premium to not be homeless, just to fund the last generation's retirement, when I'm already paying their pension and healthcare. Why should I live here anymore? For the chance that maybe I can sell that home for more... to my children's generation?
- swatcoder 3y ago
  If it means anything, that stuff looked daunting for me in my twenties too. But then a bubble burst and opportunity suddenly presented itself again. At that moment, I was actually luckier than many folk who had been a bit ahead of me, as they faced tremendous asset losses and I was just sitting on modest savings that had gone from "I'm fucked; this'll never grow fast enough" to "oh shit, I just bought a house!" overnight. For better or worse, it's really very hard to look too far into the future and know how things will work out for ourselves. Markets and societies aren't as stable or predictable as they're made out to be.
  - graypegg 3y ago
    That's a good point, it's easy to get stuck in the mindset that the current moment describes the future. At least life is interesting, I'll come along for the ride
UncleOxidant 3y ago
> There are tons of things that are much better in today's life when compared to a generation ago. Ok, so we've got smartphones and social media now. Sure you can get a lot of info and navigation help with your phone. I'm not sure we're better off with the social media, though. And the big downside now is that housing has become unaffordable. I'm an early X'er and I think we had it a lot better - I graduated with $8K in student loans (paid off in 4 years), bought our first house at 27 ( 20% down with a 15 year mortgage) and paid it off in 9 years. That's a lot harder to do now. Bought a 2nd house (rented out the first) in 2010 when houses were on sale (paid $186K, now worth ~$450K) and paid it off a couple years ago - kind of feel like I've been at the right place & right time, but people 20 to 30 years younger have hit the wrong place at the wrong time.
- kleiba 3y ago
  Are you joking, or is smartphones and social media really the only thing you think has improved for the current generation?
  - UncleOxidant 3y ago
    When I was a kid we had vinyl records. And then there were cassette tapes. And then there were CDs. And then there was streaming. And now we're back to vinyl (and cassettes, too, apparently). Sure, there have been medical advances, but often times it's the insurance companies that limit their use because they won't pay. Cars: generally better. They generally last longer than they did in the 70s and get better mileage, but some of that is negated by them being much larger than they were 30 years ago - ie we could have even more efficient vehicles if they were sized like they were in the 90s. Also, I think peak reliability was probably in the 90s, especially Japanese cars from that era (I still drive a late 90s Honda - it's very simple compared to more recent models which means it's cheap to fix and there's less to go wrong). We do have a better selection of tastier apples now, so there's that. And no, I don't think social media has improved anything.
    - ethbr1 3y ago
      Social media is the Red Delicious of the internet.
trilobyte 3y ago
I like your take, but what are the data points that lead you to the optimistic side of where things are going? Do you have a rubric or framework for thinking about "given improvements in X, Y, and Z, we are much better off now than a generation ago".
red-iron-pine 3y ago
wages have been stagnant relative to inflation and especially value-generated since the 1970s. roughly have of the US makes ~37k USD or less per year. how are they going to buy a house when the average prices are going up dramatically? the single largest cause of bankruptcy in the US is medical debt reasonably well off white collar workers, including many of the non-FAANG, non-Unicorn types on this site, will never be able to afford a house without moving hours out of cities. political bad actors, blatantly funded by corporate and foreign interests, are actively trying to paralyze and overthrow the government college, instead of getting cheaper and more ubiquitous, is more expensive than ever, creating an entire generation chained to non-dischargeable debt recent research has shown that credit card debt is now at an all-time high unprecedented heat waves, flooding, and stronger hurricanes than ever, suggest that climate change is here, and it's going to get very ugly and after years of relative peace we're now seeing multiple, brutal, conflicts that threaten, in some cases, global escalations but it's an upward slope, you say?

by kleiba 3y ago

ddorian43 3y ago

But he is in Canada. The wages suck, real estate is insane, taxes are high.

kleiba 3y ago
Well, what could his parents afford when they were his age? Also, check out how many North American places are mentioned in this list: https://www.thestreet.com/personal-finance/cost-and-affordability-of-homes-around-the-world#gid=ci02b87d3ae00027d5&pid=moscow-sh https://www.thestreet.com/personal-finance/cost-and-affordab...
- corry 3y ago
  Sorry for the TikTok link [1], but worth seeing this animation of income to housing price since the 1980s. To make matters worse, what's not shown is also the rising tax on that income. Then factor in student debt, which is not as severe as the US but is a big drain. Then factor in the record levels of immigration of the last 5 years or so. Of course offsetting all of this are other big improvements in QoL - better medicine, healthcare, etc. Also, while interest rates are high compared to last 10 years, historically they aren't crazy. But even 'not crazy' interest rates vs. this disparity in income vs housing prices. So definite 'agreed' to you and the other posters who brought up it's not a single-variable issue. But seeing this, and having a remote-friendly job, wouldn't you rather go live on a beach in Costa Rica for a few years? [1] https://www.tiktok.com/@thebeautyofdata/video/7314767397624352032?lang=en https://www.tiktok.com/@thebeautyofdata/video/73147673976243...
  - kleiba 3y ago
    Thanks for a well-balanced reply! Let's not forget that interest rates were not just relatively lower, they were actually really low just a few years ago. They have gone up since but I agree they still aren't high, especially compared to what my parents got from the banks when they financed their house. A lot of my family are builders, and when you talk to them, the old adage "they don't make them any more how they used to" is said with a "thank goodness" attached to them. In other words: they build quality has also continually gone up since the last generation built their homes and that explains a part of the increase in cost (of course, there are other factors). I do agree with your notion that there have been a number of big improvements in the QoL. That said, though, a house is certainly the main expenditure most people ever do in their lifetime. In other words, if the one item that's orders of magnitudes more expensive that most everything else you'll ever buy in your life, the effect of that price increase is especially painful - and especially hard to compensate through savings in other places. > wouldn't you rather go live on a beach in Costa Rica for a few years? I personally wouldn't but, and I wonder if most people would love the idea of doing that but when it comes to actually pulling through would chose not to?! That said, I was lucky enough to live parts of my life on three different continents of this planet - while for my parents, when they were my age, international travel was still something exotic and very expensive.
- tharmas 3y ago
  >Well, what could his parents afford when they were his age? [Article is from 2019, before Trudeau boosted the Immigration numbers to astronomical numbers] "In 1971, those in the top 20 per cent by income had a home-ownership rate approximately 10 per cent higher than those in the bottom fifth. This difference has grown severalfold in the ensuing decades. Millennials are entering home ownership in small numbers and later than their forebears: 50 per cent of millennials own a home today compared with 55 per cent of people their age in 1981." https://thetyee.ca/Analysis/2019/08/01/Gov-Created-Housing-Crisis-Now-Fix/ https://thetyee.ca/Analysis/2019/08/01/Gov-Created-Housing-C... The housing situation in Canada (not just Toronto and Vancouver) is on a scale unlike any other developed country.
  - ethbr1 3y ago
    > The housing situation in Canada (not just Toronto and Vancouver) is on a scale unlike any other developed country. Australia? https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-67723760 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-67723760 Maybe it's a thing with British colonies...
    - red-iron-pine 3y ago
      more like inhabitable wastelands where much of the land can't support large quantities of people, which leads to a handful of large cities without much space. I've worked outside in both places, -40C and +40C. there is a reason most of the population is in a few expensive places.

chgs 3y ago

It’s all housing. This doesn’t apply to the average HN millionaire in 600k a year but for normal people to get the life affordable on a single average salary in the 90s requires a double salary earning far more. But sure you’ve got Netflix rather than cable tv so I guess that offsets it.

eastbound 3y ago
But that’s the thing: People are buying those houses. They are not inaffordable. What we’re seeing is rather: Jobs get more and more advanced, you don’t only need to do IT, you need to be in the right sector of IT. Each new generation discovers/invents a new scale of wealth, no-one could have imagined in 2000 that developers would be paid more than $120k, but $600k is the new average in the right jobs. I’ve made a blast as a Java/Full-stack developer in my generation, leaving hairdressers of my city in the dust in terms of purchasing power. But in 10 years? I’ll still be as rich, but AI developers will earn 10x more than me. It scares me to death, not for myself, but how can normal people compete with a normal job, when there are more and more internet millionaires, dropshipping lords, bitcoins kingpins, youtube magnates and AI clerics who can stomach x2 on food prices and x10 on housing?

graypegg 3y ago

I do think people tend to overblow things because of generational miscommunication. But... I'm 25, and won't be owning a home anytime soon. And not for lack of trying! In Canada, there's a first time homebuyers saving account, which I load up when I can. But food is quite expensive. And so is rent. I had to move (Toronto => Montréal) because I couldn't afford 2500$/m there. I think people hear that, and attribute that the costs are directly related to me being "too picky" or overspending, unlike people in the past. But I was living in an area of Toronto a parent grew up in. In the city. Food has definitely gotten more expensive in my own lifetime. I tend to be pretty boring with meals I make, so seeing the normal grocery bill tick up from 40$ to 55~60$ has been a bit of a shock, despite buying the same things. I look at my home buyer savings account, and compare to the housing market around here in Montréal which is "good" compared to most of canada, and I see lots of 100k$ down, 750k$ units. Most of which will eat up my savings account with the down payment. This is while working on a tech worker salary. That puts me in a lucky category, for which I'm infinitely grateful for, it's a lot more stressful for others. I don't really want to pay a premium to not be homeless, just to fund the last generation's retirement, when I'm already paying their pension and healthcare. Why should I live here anymore? For the chance that maybe I can sell that home for more... to my children's generation?

swatcoder 3y ago
If it means anything, that stuff looked daunting for me in my twenties too. But then a bubble burst and opportunity suddenly presented itself again. At that moment, I was actually luckier than many folk who had been a bit ahead of me, as they faced tremendous asset losses and I was just sitting on modest savings that had gone from "I'm fucked; this'll never grow fast enough" to "oh shit, I just bought a house!" overnight. For better or worse, it's really very hard to look too far into the future and know how things will work out for ourselves. Markets and societies aren't as stable or predictable as they're made out to be.
- graypegg 3y ago
  That's a good point, it's easy to get stuck in the mindset that the current moment describes the future. At least life is interesting, I'll come along for the ride

UncleOxidant 3y ago

> There are tons of things that are much better in today's life when compared to a generation ago. Ok, so we've got smartphones and social media now. Sure you can get a lot of info and navigation help with your phone. I'm not sure we're better off with the social media, though. And the big downside now is that housing has become unaffordable. I'm an early X'er and I think we had it a lot better - I graduated with $8K in student loans (paid off in 4 years), bought our first house at 27 ( 20% down with a 15 year mortgage) and paid it off in 9 years. That's a lot harder to do now. Bought a 2nd house (rented out the first) in 2010 when houses were on sale (paid $186K, now worth ~$450K) and paid it off a couple years ago - kind of feel like I've been at the right place & right time, but people 20 to 30 years younger have hit the wrong place at the wrong time.

kleiba 3y ago
Are you joking, or is smartphones and social media really the only thing you think has improved for the current generation?
- UncleOxidant 3y ago
  When I was a kid we had vinyl records. And then there were cassette tapes. And then there were CDs. And then there was streaming. And now we're back to vinyl (and cassettes, too, apparently). Sure, there have been medical advances, but often times it's the insurance companies that limit their use because they won't pay. Cars: generally better. They generally last longer than they did in the 70s and get better mileage, but some of that is negated by them being much larger than they were 30 years ago - ie we could have even more efficient vehicles if they were sized like they were in the 90s. Also, I think peak reliability was probably in the 90s, especially Japanese cars from that era (I still drive a late 90s Honda - it's very simple compared to more recent models which means it's cheap to fix and there's less to go wrong). We do have a better selection of tastier apples now, so there's that. And no, I don't think social media has improved anything.
  - ethbr1 3y ago
    Social media is the Red Delicious of the internet.

trilobyte 3y ago

I like your take, but what are the data points that lead you to the optimistic side of where things are going? Do you have a rubric or framework for thinking about "given improvements in X, Y, and Z, we are much better off now than a generation ago".

red-iron-pine 3y ago

wages have been stagnant relative to inflation and especially value-generated since the 1970s. roughly have of the US makes ~37k USD or less per year. how are they going to buy a house when the average prices are going up dramatically? the single largest cause of bankruptcy in the US is medical debt reasonably well off white collar workers, including many of the non-FAANG, non-Unicorn types on this site, will never be able to afford a house without moving hours out of cities. political bad actors, blatantly funded by corporate and foreign interests, are actively trying to paralyze and overthrow the government college, instead of getting cheaper and more ubiquitous, is more expensive than ever, creating an entire generation chained to non-dischargeable debt recent research has shown that credit card debt is now at an all-time high unprecedented heat waves, flooding, and stronger hurricanes than ever, suggest that climate change is here, and it's going to get very ugly and after years of relative peace we're now seeing multiple, brutal, conflicts that threaten, in some cases, global escalations but it's an upward slope, you say?