5 ms·

I've done a lot of SRE work and two stints at companies with RoR stacks. Really have kinda soured on Ruby and Python at this point and it has little to do with

by Rapzid 3y ago

I've done a lot of SRE work and two stints at companies with RoR stacks. Really have kinda soured on Ruby and Python at this point and it has little to do with loops. If I had to choose though it would be Python for asyncio.

sho 3y ago
The omitted context in this comment is that the RoR stack propelled those 2 companies to the level of usage and viability where they needed, and could afford to hire, SRE engineers. I'm not saying RoR doesn't have its faults, I've left it behind too. But I can't deny its productivity, and even in 2024 I would be hard pressed to name something better for a SAAS company starting out.
- SkyPuncher 3y ago
  I’ve tried so many stacks on side projects and always come back to RoR (with a bit of a grudge). I dislike many things about Ruby, but RoR is extremely hard to beat. Basically, everything you need in a stack is provided or readily available in the community.
  - sho 3y ago
    Yeah. My usual advice to anyone who asks is "Use Rails unless you have a very good reason not to". Those reasons do exist, but they're pretty specific and don't apply 90% of the time. Of course if we're being really real, the first piece of advice should actually be "Can this be Wordpress?"
    - kayodelycaon 3y ago
      > Can this be Wordpress? Yup. I’m a huge fan of rails, but I’m an even larger fan of not writing code in the first place. If a spreadsheet can solve your problem, I’m going to suggest a spreadsheet. If a vendor can solve your problem well enough, I’ll suggest a vendor. My time, energy, and attention is valuable. I’m here for the problems you can’t or shouldn’t outsource.
    - tasuki 3y ago
      Why WordPress? I'll take a simple static website over wordpress anytime. With wordpress: - you are now suddenly also a database administrator - the different people touching the admin interface will break things in subtle ways - welcome an incomprehensible security nightmare into your life Yes, wordpress is extremely easy to set up. Maintain? Nope!
      - sho 3y ago
        In my experience there is absolutely nothing "simple" about a static website, especially one that is going to be used by other people. If it was my personal blog or something, sure. A website for a non-technical friend with a business who wants to be able to post updates, etc? Omg no. No no no no no. Good managed wordpress starts at like $10-20/month. All those problems you mention go away, you can even do things like rollbacks if someone breaks something. If what you want to do fits into what WP can do pretty well, it's a no-brainer.
        tasuki 3y ago
        > A website for a non-technical friend with a business who wants to be able to post updates, etc? Omg no. No no no no no. I co-organise an event with a non-technical friend. Previously it was using some sort of a custom cms which was hell. I set it up with Jekyll, created a GitHub account for my friend and taught him markdown (five minutes perhaps). Yes he breaks things occasionally. That's fine! Everything is versioned, so I can easily fix things.
        sho 3y ago
        I see your definition of non-technical is a little different from mine...
- kqr 3y ago
  This is so often the case. "Ugh, with technology X you get such intense growing pains!" ...well, congratulations!
- Rapzid 3y ago
  Or it was along for the ride. One of those companies was propelled by product market fit, the other by 0% interest and the VC firehose of 2021. When the successful company was founded back in the noughties RoR was arguably miles ahead of everything else. An argument could certainly be made about time-to-market and iteration speed. For the later there were a lot of other viable options available.. > even in 2024 I would be hard pressed to name something better for a SAAS company starting My sense, at least looking at the stacks for tons of recent YC companies, is that most startups are all in on JavaScript these days. Might not actually be better(though I prefer it), but that seems to be the trend.
VS1999 3y ago
What issues did you have with python?
- Rapzid 3y ago
  I just prefer the experience, tooling, and performance of other languages more. Honestly two of my biggest "pains" with it were resolved the last time I was using it professionally via pipenv and asyncio. For use cases outside AI, and perhaps some niche stuff as a bash replacement since its pre-installed on most distros, it's in a sorta no man's land where I believe there are better options and the industry activity has moved on.
dragonwriter 3y ago
> If I had to choose though it would be Python for asyncio. I can think of lots of reasons to prefer Python over Ruby, but asyncio in Python compared to Ruby’s async is not at all one of them.
- wiseowise 3y ago
  What about it?
  - dragonwriter 3y ago
    “Not an advantage” is sort of the default case; Ruby supports async, too (and, unlike Python, doesn't have function coloring.) So, I don't see why asyncio is an advantage. I like Python -- I use it more than Ruby -- and asyncio is fine, just, IMO, not an advantage of Python over Ruby.
pjmlp 3y ago
Python has two killer use cases, being a better Perl that one can read one month later, and a better BASIC for introduction to programming and IoT stuff. Trying to use it for application code, eventually ends up in pain, rewriting code into C and calling it "Python".
- resource_waste 3y ago
  Was this written in 2008?
  - pjmlp 3y ago
    Written in 2024, with 38 years of experience reaching out to dynamic languages, some of which without any kind of JIT/AOT in the reference implementation, which Python happens to be one of them. Eventually if the JIT POC from 3.13 evolves to something that can compete with a Common Lisp, or Smalltalk JIT, then I can change of opinion. Note that I only mention those two languages on purpose.

by Rapzid 3y ago

sho 3y ago

The omitted context in this comment is that the RoR stack propelled those 2 companies to the level of usage and viability where they needed, and could afford to hire, SRE engineers. I'm not saying RoR doesn't have its faults, I've left it behind too. But I can't deny its productivity, and even in 2024 I would be hard pressed to name something better for a SAAS company starting out.

SkyPuncher 3y ago
I’ve tried so many stacks on side projects and always come back to RoR (with a bit of a grudge). I dislike many things about Ruby, but RoR is extremely hard to beat. Basically, everything you need in a stack is provided or readily available in the community.
- sho 3y ago
  Yeah. My usual advice to anyone who asks is "Use Rails unless you have a very good reason not to". Those reasons do exist, but they're pretty specific and don't apply 90% of the time. Of course if we're being really real, the first piece of advice should actually be "Can this be Wordpress?"
  - kayodelycaon 3y ago
    > Can this be Wordpress? Yup. I’m a huge fan of rails, but I’m an even larger fan of not writing code in the first place. If a spreadsheet can solve your problem, I’m going to suggest a spreadsheet. If a vendor can solve your problem well enough, I’ll suggest a vendor. My time, energy, and attention is valuable. I’m here for the problems you can’t or shouldn’t outsource.
  - tasuki 3y ago
    Why WordPress? I'll take a simple static website over wordpress anytime. With wordpress: - you are now suddenly also a database administrator - the different people touching the admin interface will break things in subtle ways - welcome an incomprehensible security nightmare into your life Yes, wordpress is extremely easy to set up. Maintain? Nope!
    - sho 3y ago
      In my experience there is absolutely nothing "simple" about a static website, especially one that is going to be used by other people. If it was my personal blog or something, sure. A website for a non-technical friend with a business who wants to be able to post updates, etc? Omg no. No no no no no. Good managed wordpress starts at like $10-20/month. All those problems you mention go away, you can even do things like rollbacks if someone breaks something. If what you want to do fits into what WP can do pretty well, it's a no-brainer.
      - tasuki 3y ago
        > A website for a non-technical friend with a business who wants to be able to post updates, etc? Omg no. No no no no no. I co-organise an event with a non-technical friend. Previously it was using some sort of a custom cms which was hell. I set it up with Jekyll, created a GitHub account for my friend and taught him markdown (five minutes perhaps). Yes he breaks things occasionally. That's fine! Everything is versioned, so I can easily fix things.
        sho 3y ago
        I see your definition of non-technical is a little different from mine...
kqr 3y ago
This is so often the case. "Ugh, with technology X you get such intense growing pains!" ...well, congratulations!
Rapzid 3y ago
Or it was along for the ride. One of those companies was propelled by product market fit, the other by 0% interest and the VC firehose of 2021. When the successful company was founded back in the noughties RoR was arguably miles ahead of everything else. An argument could certainly be made about time-to-market and iteration speed. For the later there were a lot of other viable options available.. > even in 2024 I would be hard pressed to name something better for a SAAS company starting My sense, at least looking at the stacks for tons of recent YC companies, is that most startups are all in on JavaScript these days. Might not actually be better(though I prefer it), but that seems to be the trend.

VS1999 3y ago

What issues did you have with python?

Rapzid 3y ago
I just prefer the experience, tooling, and performance of other languages more. Honestly two of my biggest "pains" with it were resolved the last time I was using it professionally via pipenv and asyncio. For use cases outside AI, and perhaps some niche stuff as a bash replacement since its pre-installed on most distros, it's in a sorta no man's land where I believe there are better options and the industry activity has moved on.

dragonwriter 3y ago

> If I had to choose though it would be Python for asyncio. I can think of lots of reasons to prefer Python over Ruby, but asyncio in Python compared to Ruby’s async is not at all one of them.

wiseowise 3y ago
What about it?
- dragonwriter 3y ago
  “Not an advantage” is sort of the default case; Ruby supports async, too (and, unlike Python, doesn't have function coloring.) So, I don't see why asyncio is an advantage. I like Python -- I use it more than Ruby -- and asyncio is fine, just, IMO, not an advantage of Python over Ruby.

pjmlp 3y ago

Python has two killer use cases, being a better Perl that one can read one month later, and a better BASIC for introduction to programming and IoT stuff. Trying to use it for application code, eventually ends up in pain, rewriting code into C and calling it "Python".

resource_waste 3y ago
Was this written in 2008?
- pjmlp 3y ago
  Written in 2024, with 38 years of experience reaching out to dynamic languages, some of which without any kind of JIT/AOT in the reference implementation, which Python happens to be one of them. Eventually if the JIT POC from 3.13 evolves to something that can compete with a Common Lisp, or Smalltalk JIT, then I can change of opinion. Note that I only mention those two languages on purpose.