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> The problem is that there’s an entire political ideology holding that government is inherently wasteful and its adherents will oppose any attempt to track mar

> The problem is that there’s an entire political ideology holding that government is inherently wasteful and its adherents will oppose any attempt to track market salaries because that allows them both to say they’re saving money at the time and later to cite the struggling/failed project as proof that they were right Why is it a surprise that employees who are essentially unfirable don't perform well? Aside from a very small percentage where the hiring culture is exceptional, it's almost universal. This is a problem with governments across at all levels in almost all countries. How many times do we have to match this movie before realizing that just increasing the salaries won't make a difference, and instead will be wasteful.

acdha 2y ago
> Why is it a surprise that employees who are essentially unfirable don't perform well? This is a great example of that political dogma: notice that you’ve accepted as an article of faith the trope that government employees can’t be fired or disciplined or that this is not true of contractors, despite neither of those being true? If your goal is successful projects, what you’re looking for is accountability and managerial discretion. The managers you think can’t direct civil servants directly aren’t magically more capable of selecting and overseeing contracts, either, and without technical staff they won’t have someone they can turn to for advice who doesn’t have a financial conflict of interest.
- ripjaygn 2y ago
  > This is a great example of that political dogma: notice that you’ve accepted as an article of faith the trope that government employees can’t be fired or disciplined or that this is not true of contractors, despite neither of those being true Nice strawman. It is harder to fire govt employees than to fire private employees. Disagree? Just look up at-will employment law that doesn't apply to government entities. Looks like you're the one following political dogma and accepting articles of faith and tropes. Otherwise why would ignore that a very consequential law is different for private vs govt employees? > The managers you think can’t direct civil servants directly aren’t magically more capable of selecting and overseeing contracts, either. Where did I say they cannot? Please stop with the strawmen. They just don't have enough incentive because it's very hard to fire them, unlike managers in the private sector.
  - acdha 2y ago
    > Nice strawman. It is harder to fire govt employees than to fire private employees. Disagree? Let’s see, so it’s not a straw man when you say government employees are “essentially unfirable” but it is when someone corrects you?
    - ripjaygn 2y ago
      Lets ignore the personal back and forth, and get back to the argument. It is harder to fire govt employees than to fire private employees. Disagree? At-will employment law doesn't apply to government entities. A very consequential law is different for private vs govt employees. > The managers you think can’t direct civil servants directly aren’t magically more capable of selecting and overseeing contracts, either. Never said in my comment they cannot direct civil servants. They just don't have enough incentive because it's very hard to fire them, unlike managers in the private sector.
      - ahahahahah 2y ago
        That's like the farthest I've seen goalposts move within a span of two comments. You went from "essentially unfirable" to simply "harder to fire" and continues to act like you're so right. Like it's almost pointless to discuss something with someone who pretends those are even close to the same.
        ripjaygn 2y ago
        That's three comments where folks are attacking me instead of addressing the topic because they know they lost the argument. Sad to see that happen. And also look up the meaning of the word essentially.
      - paulmd 2y ago
        > Lets ignore the personal back and forth, and get back to the argument. I mean, were you not attempting to make an argument when you said that government employees were “essentially unfirable”? Your argument just sucked/was factually incorrect and you want to steer away from the “interpersonal” aspect of someone pointing that out. It’s gauche to point this out on HN but you aren’t engaging in good faith here - wnd when someone else engages you in actual good-faith you fall back to juvenile debate-club attempts to frame them as the wrongdoer. That’s highly rude and a bad attitude and approach to bring to this community. Act better and take some accountability for your own misbehavior.
xnyan 2y ago
> Why is it a surprise that employees who are essentially unfirable. A government needs employees right? One way to attract and retain employees is to offer competitive wages, another is to offer a relatively low workload and high job stability. Government worker salaries are easy targets and the people who set them are elected officials, so its not a surprise most governments today lean on job security over wages.

acdha 2y ago

> Why is it a surprise that employees who are essentially unfirable don't perform well? This is a great example of that political dogma: notice that you’ve accepted as an article of faith the trope that government employees can’t be fired or disciplined or that this is not true of contractors, despite neither of those being true? If your goal is successful projects, what you’re looking for is accountability and managerial discretion. The managers you think can’t direct civil servants directly aren’t magically more capable of selecting and overseeing contracts, either, and without technical staff they won’t have someone they can turn to for advice who doesn’t have a financial conflict of interest.

ripjaygn 2y ago
> This is a great example of that political dogma: notice that you’ve accepted as an article of faith the trope that government employees can’t be fired or disciplined or that this is not true of contractors, despite neither of those being true Nice strawman. It is harder to fire govt employees than to fire private employees. Disagree? Just look up at-will employment law that doesn't apply to government entities. Looks like you're the one following political dogma and accepting articles of faith and tropes. Otherwise why would ignore that a very consequential law is different for private vs govt employees? > The managers you think can’t direct civil servants directly aren’t magically more capable of selecting and overseeing contracts, either. Where did I say they cannot? Please stop with the strawmen. They just don't have enough incentive because it's very hard to fire them, unlike managers in the private sector.
- acdha 2y ago
  > Nice strawman. It is harder to fire govt employees than to fire private employees. Disagree? Let’s see, so it’s not a straw man when you say government employees are “essentially unfirable” but it is when someone corrects you?
  - ripjaygn 2y ago
    Lets ignore the personal back and forth, and get back to the argument. It is harder to fire govt employees than to fire private employees. Disagree? At-will employment law doesn't apply to government entities. A very consequential law is different for private vs govt employees. > The managers you think can’t direct civil servants directly aren’t magically more capable of selecting and overseeing contracts, either. Never said in my comment they cannot direct civil servants. They just don't have enough incentive because it's very hard to fire them, unlike managers in the private sector.
    - ahahahahah 2y ago
      That's like the farthest I've seen goalposts move within a span of two comments. You went from "essentially unfirable" to simply "harder to fire" and continues to act like you're so right. Like it's almost pointless to discuss something with someone who pretends those are even close to the same.
      - ripjaygn 2y ago
        That's three comments where folks are attacking me instead of addressing the topic because they know they lost the argument. Sad to see that happen. And also look up the meaning of the word essentially.
    - paulmd 2y ago
      > Lets ignore the personal back and forth, and get back to the argument. I mean, were you not attempting to make an argument when you said that government employees were “essentially unfirable”? Your argument just sucked/was factually incorrect and you want to steer away from the “interpersonal” aspect of someone pointing that out. It’s gauche to point this out on HN but you aren’t engaging in good faith here - wnd when someone else engages you in actual good-faith you fall back to juvenile debate-club attempts to frame them as the wrongdoer. That’s highly rude and a bad attitude and approach to bring to this community. Act better and take some accountability for your own misbehavior.

xnyan 2y ago

> Why is it a surprise that employees who are essentially unfirable. A government needs employees right? One way to attract and retain employees is to offer competitive wages, another is to offer a relatively low workload and high job stability. Government worker salaries are easy targets and the people who set them are elected officials, so its not a surprise most governments today lean on job security over wages.