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I’m always surprised no one talks about the top of funnel for ATC controllers. As a pilot, ham radio operator, and operations enthusiast I considered it as a ca

I’m always surprised no one talks about the top of funnel for ATC controllers. As a pilot, ham radio operator, and operations enthusiast I considered it as a career change at 35 but it’s an impossible field to switch into. In particular: Must be a U.S. citizen Must be age 30 or under on the closing date of the application period (with limited exceptions) Must have either three years of general work experience or four years of education leading to a bachelor’s degree, or a combination of both Must relocate to Oklahoma City + a rural airport for multiple years. Salary is $135k/yr I suspect a lot of others get weeded out during the Hogan test (mmpi2) and no-history-of-ADHD-or-depression requirements. The extensive relocation periods don’t bother me but one would have had to come straight out of school with the mission of doing ATC to even qualify. This hiring thread is worth a read: https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1c1wmt2/i_am_an_air_traffic_controller_next_week_the_faa/ https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1c1wmt2/i_am_an_air_t... Coming from startup land, it’s so clear the lack of available and qualified controllers is directly down line of this thorny problem. It’s the inverse corollary to growth fixes all problems.

meowster 2y ago
The salary varies from 60k to a middle-of-nowhere tower to $150k in New York or California which is not enough to live on comfortably. Of course we are going to burn out and make mistakes when we have to drive an hour plus to and from the city six days a week because we can't afford to live any closer and staffing isn't better because people quit because of the pay. It's not a supply problem with staffing, it's a pay problem. Over 50,000 people apply every year, but people are quiting because quality of life sucks, and the biggest thing the FAA can do to change it, is to increase pay, and they aren't doing that.
- imoverclocked 2y ago
  Given your username, I have to ask. Do you ever meow on guard? On a serious note, what are your views on privatization of ATC? The one airport in my region that I know is privatized has a horrible reputation among pilots and DPEs alike.
  - meowster 2y ago
    That would be an unauthorized transmission and I would never do that :-) No comment on the other question, sorry.
  - kayfox 2y ago
    > The one airport in my region that I know is privatized has a horrible reputation among pilots and DPEs alike. KSQL?
    - imoverclocked 2y ago
      Affirmative. https://www.reddit.com/r/flying/comments/15r15e2/the_absolute_state_of_tower_ops_at_ksql/ https://www.reddit.com/r/flying/comments/15r15e2/the_absolut...
- shellfishgene 2y ago
  Is there no union?
  - selectodude 2y ago
    There is but the last time they went on strike it didn’t go well.
  - mapt 2y ago
    The last time the union asked for bathroom breaks Ronald Reagan shut down the nation's airspace for weeks and partially militarized that function in order to fire nearly all of the workforce. It is regarded as a historic, symbolic landmark act, shorthand for a turning point wherein the US collectively rejected unions.
    - srackey 2y ago
      Pretending they were just asking for bathroom breaks is total BS.
MuffinFlavored 2y ago
> Coming from startup land, it’s so clear the lack of available and qualified controllers is directly down line of this thorny problem. Am I wrong to feel personally that lowering the hiring standards for ATC controllers is a step in the wrong direction? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjoDn8zQgb8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjoDn8zQgb8 One of the top comments: > The controllers I know are PISSED about this because this was grossly ATC’s fault. I'm personally terrified every-time I get on a plane. If you go to a restauraunt, your order coming out right and not making you sick depends on like, 3-4 systems/employees/supply chains/whatever. I'd say it's like 80% fine most of the time. How many supply chains does a plane go through? 80% fine most cuts it for like... mild tech production incidents, screwed up food orders How does it work out for airplanes/ATC?
- jessriedel 2y ago
  Commercial air travel is the safest form of transportation in the history of the planet. If you’re terrified every time you get on a plane, you shouldn’t be using that intuition as a guide to policy.
  - MuffinFlavored 2y ago
    > Commercial air travel is the safest form of transportation in the history of the planet. Until it's not, right? Historically, it has been. If there was a 1/1,000,000,000 chance you were going to die on a plane ride, would you voluntarily choose to take it? Ok, what about 1/1,000,000?
    - JoshGG 2y ago
      Arnold Barnett, a statistician at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology who has studied airline safety, tells NPR that from 2018 to 2022, the chances of a passenger being killed on a flight anywhere in the world was 1 in 13.4 million. Between 1968 to 1977, the chance was 1 in 350,000. "Worldwide flying is extremely safe, but in the United States, it's extraordinarily so," Barnett said. In the U.S., there has not been a fatal plane crash involving a major American airline since February 2009, though there have been a handful of fatalities since then. Brickhouse, who has studied aviation safety for over 25 years, often tells people that the biggest risk of any air journey tends to be driving to the airport. More than 40,000 people are killed on U.S. roads each year. "Aviation remains the safest mode of transportation," he says. https://www.npr.org/2024/03/12/1237262132/why-flying-safe-united-airlines-boeing#:~:text=Arnold%20Barnett%2C%20a%20statistician%20at,chance%20was%201%20in%20350%2C000 https://www.npr.org/2024/03/12/1237262132/why-flying-safe-un....
foobarian 2y ago
> Must be age 30 or under I wonder what legal exception allows this to be a requirement. This would never fly on a tech job posting.
- jxcl 2y ago
  The federal government is not beholden to federal employment laws, ironically
- tcmart14 2y ago
  I assume it the same that also allows for age cut off for military. If I remember correctly, I enlisted young, got out and no plan to go back. 32 is the age cut off to enlisting. Prior service gets like a 2-3 year extension. What is surprising is that the cut off doesn't match the military's cut off.
  - rkagerer 2y ago
    Can sort of understand for military, totally don't understand for ATC. Do other countries with substantial densities of planes in the air have the same age prerequisite, and in the ones that don't are their planes colliding any worse than in the States?
    - xcv123 2y ago
      "Why do air traffic controllers have to be under 31 years old? The reasoning behind this is that FAA safety regulations require controllers to stop working traffic at age 56, and to receive a federal pension, you need to have worked at least 25 years. By making the maximum starting age cutoff 30, all new hire controllers have the potential to do their 25 years and earn a pension prior to reaching retirement age. Pro Tip: The one publicly stated exception to the 30-year starting age cut off is for former military air traffic controllers. These candidates may apply even if they are older than 30."
      - shiroiushi 2y ago
        >The one publicly stated exception to the 30-year starting age cut off is for former military air traffic controllers. This makes me wonder: what portion of America's ATCs are former military ATCs? I'm guessing it's fairly substantial, and without this convenient source of recruits (because someone who spent time in the military doing ATC now has a very convenient pipeline into a civilian job), the FAA might be forced into making changes. It's similar for pilots: a lot of them are former military pilots, so they got all their training at government expense, and the industries that hire them don't have to pay for that. Pilots without a military (or police) background generally have to pay for their own training, which is extremely expensive, so not that many people do it, because these jobs don't pay that well to begin with. Without the military giving free training to all these people, a lot of industries in America wouldn't have such a cheap source of readily-trained labor and things would look very different.
mynameisnoone 2y ago
Also from startup land. I only have points 1 and 3. The salary is laughable unless you have no other option. I can make more or less a personality test seem however I want it to seem so they're about as useful as Rorschach tests and polygraphy. The no ADHD or depression requirements: well fuck me, I'll stick to failing at foolish things rather than bother with an antiquated, potentially dangerous, soon to be automated orchestration process rife with opportunities for human error, and instead take a train or ship. It's arguably safer and definitely greener.
- shiroiushi 2y ago
  >and instead take a train or ship. It's arguably safer and definitely greener. I'm pretty sure that cruise ships are definitely NOT greener than airplanes for intercontinental travel. (And trains are useless for such.) Some kind of ocean-going passenger ship optimized for per-passenger fuel economy probably could beat jumbo jets, but we don't have those kinds of ships. And they wouldn't be very nice: they wouldn't have swimming pools, spas, nice restaurants, etc., and instead would put people into 3-high bunk beds in shared dormitory rooms.
- coldtea 2y ago
  >The salary is laughable unless you have no other option. If it was just 100K would place one in the 77th percentile in the US. The 135K mentioned is 87 percentile. So hardly "laughable unless you have no other option". Maybe "laughable unless you can have a job in software engineering" or in some similar bubble. >The no ADHD or depression requirements: well fuck me, I'll stick to failing at foolish things rather than bother with an antiquated, potentially dangerous, soon to be automated orchestration process rife with opportunities for human error, and instead take a train or ship Yeah, commercial flying isn't going anywhere anytime soon. Neither is ATC personnel. And good luck getting to Europe or Latin America with a ship from the US. At least you'll have enough time to learn new hobbies.
bobthepanda 2y ago
also, and this is affecting a lot of other federal jobs or jobs requiring federal licensing like CDLs, you can't smoke weed. given how popular weed has become in legalized states, this is quickly becoming a major issue for all of these lines of work
- sneak 2y ago
  Personally, I think safety-critical roles like ATC should be restricted to those who don’t take recreational psychoactives of any kind, alcohol included. This includes in their off hours.
  - ntumlin 2y ago
    > recreational psychoactives of any kind I’d prefer my ATC has a cup of coffee if they want it. Aside from that, what does what happens in their off hours matter provided they’re coming to work sober?
    - sneak 2y ago
      Many psychoactives have medium term effects on the brain. Regular marijuana consumption causes memory and attention deficits even when not stoned. That matters. There is even an argument that caffeine should be restricted in such roles. I certainly wouldn’t want ATC operating on too many energy drinks or coffee. If we are banning people who take antidepressants, we should also be banning people who take edibles on their day off. If we are going purely performance-based, then there should be a mandatory cognitive function test before the start of every shift, testing working memory, reaction times, coordination, etc. “sober” is a wide spectrum and encompasses “ate tons of edibles 48 hours ago and came to work on 3 hours of sleep and a five hour energy shot on the way in”.
- coldtea 2y ago
  >given how popular weed has become in legalized states, this is quickly becoming a major issue for all of these lines of work I'd rather my ATC is not smoking weed before arriving at the job (or worse, between breaks)... Lots of studies of how it impairs reaction times, executive function, and motor control (Of course the same goes for medicinally subscribeb anything that functions like that, including all kinds of pills)
incomingpain 2y ago
I was an air traffic controller, emphasis on was. You absolutely dont want to be one.
- Suzuran 2y ago
  I met a kindergarten teacher who left an ATC job for American public education because the pay was higher. Let that sink in.
  - incomingpain 2y ago
    Money isn't even the factor. It's just an impossible job not worth the stress/trauma associated.
  - vdqtp3 2y ago
    They probably quit before getting certified - once you're certified you make $70k minimum and that's at a shitty little tower in the midwest

meowster 2y ago

The salary varies from 60k to a middle-of-nowhere tower to $150k in New York or California which is not enough to live on comfortably. Of course we are going to burn out and make mistakes when we have to drive an hour plus to and from the city six days a week because we can't afford to live any closer and staffing isn't better because people quit because of the pay. It's not a supply problem with staffing, it's a pay problem. Over 50,000 people apply every year, but people are quiting because quality of life sucks, and the biggest thing the FAA can do to change it, is to increase pay, and they aren't doing that.

imoverclocked 2y ago
Given your username, I have to ask. Do you ever meow on guard? On a serious note, what are your views on privatization of ATC? The one airport in my region that I know is privatized has a horrible reputation among pilots and DPEs alike.
- meowster 2y ago
  That would be an unauthorized transmission and I would never do that :-) No comment on the other question, sorry.
- kayfox 2y ago
  > The one airport in my region that I know is privatized has a horrible reputation among pilots and DPEs alike. KSQL?
  - imoverclocked 2y ago
    Affirmative. https://www.reddit.com/r/flying/comments/15r15e2/the_absolute_state_of_tower_ops_at_ksql/ https://www.reddit.com/r/flying/comments/15r15e2/the_absolut...
shellfishgene 2y ago
Is there no union?
- selectodude 2y ago
  There is but the last time they went on strike it didn’t go well.
- mapt 2y ago
  The last time the union asked for bathroom breaks Ronald Reagan shut down the nation's airspace for weeks and partially militarized that function in order to fire nearly all of the workforce. It is regarded as a historic, symbolic landmark act, shorthand for a turning point wherein the US collectively rejected unions.
  - srackey 2y ago
    Pretending they were just asking for bathroom breaks is total BS.

MuffinFlavored 2y ago

> Coming from startup land, it’s so clear the lack of available and qualified controllers is directly down line of this thorny problem. Am I wrong to feel personally that lowering the hiring standards for ATC controllers is a step in the wrong direction? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjoDn8zQgb8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjoDn8zQgb8 One of the top comments: > The controllers I know are PISSED about this because this was grossly ATC’s fault. I'm personally terrified every-time I get on a plane. If you go to a restauraunt, your order coming out right and not making you sick depends on like, 3-4 systems/employees/supply chains/whatever. I'd say it's like 80% fine most of the time. How many supply chains does a plane go through? 80% fine most cuts it for like... mild tech production incidents, screwed up food orders How does it work out for airplanes/ATC?

jessriedel 2y ago
Commercial air travel is the safest form of transportation in the history of the planet. If you’re terrified every time you get on a plane, you shouldn’t be using that intuition as a guide to policy.
- MuffinFlavored 2y ago
  > Commercial air travel is the safest form of transportation in the history of the planet. Until it's not, right? Historically, it has been. If there was a 1/1,000,000,000 chance you were going to die on a plane ride, would you voluntarily choose to take it? Ok, what about 1/1,000,000?
  - JoshGG 2y ago
    Arnold Barnett, a statistician at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology who has studied airline safety, tells NPR that from 2018 to 2022, the chances of a passenger being killed on a flight anywhere in the world was 1 in 13.4 million. Between 1968 to 1977, the chance was 1 in 350,000. "Worldwide flying is extremely safe, but in the United States, it's extraordinarily so," Barnett said. In the U.S., there has not been a fatal plane crash involving a major American airline since February 2009, though there have been a handful of fatalities since then. Brickhouse, who has studied aviation safety for over 25 years, often tells people that the biggest risk of any air journey tends to be driving to the airport. More than 40,000 people are killed on U.S. roads each year. "Aviation remains the safest mode of transportation," he says. https://www.npr.org/2024/03/12/1237262132/why-flying-safe-united-airlines-boeing#:~:text=Arnold%20Barnett%2C%20a%20statistician%20at,chance%20was%201%20in%20350%2C000 https://www.npr.org/2024/03/12/1237262132/why-flying-safe-un....

foobarian 2y ago

> Must be age 30 or under I wonder what legal exception allows this to be a requirement. This would never fly on a tech job posting.

jxcl 2y ago
The federal government is not beholden to federal employment laws, ironically
tcmart14 2y ago
I assume it the same that also allows for age cut off for military. If I remember correctly, I enlisted young, got out and no plan to go back. 32 is the age cut off to enlisting. Prior service gets like a 2-3 year extension. What is surprising is that the cut off doesn't match the military's cut off.
- rkagerer 2y ago
  Can sort of understand for military, totally don't understand for ATC. Do other countries with substantial densities of planes in the air have the same age prerequisite, and in the ones that don't are their planes colliding any worse than in the States?
  - xcv123 2y ago
    "Why do air traffic controllers have to be under 31 years old? The reasoning behind this is that FAA safety regulations require controllers to stop working traffic at age 56, and to receive a federal pension, you need to have worked at least 25 years. By making the maximum starting age cutoff 30, all new hire controllers have the potential to do their 25 years and earn a pension prior to reaching retirement age. Pro Tip: The one publicly stated exception to the 30-year starting age cut off is for former military air traffic controllers. These candidates may apply even if they are older than 30."
    - shiroiushi 2y ago
      >The one publicly stated exception to the 30-year starting age cut off is for former military air traffic controllers. This makes me wonder: what portion of America's ATCs are former military ATCs? I'm guessing it's fairly substantial, and without this convenient source of recruits (because someone who spent time in the military doing ATC now has a very convenient pipeline into a civilian job), the FAA might be forced into making changes. It's similar for pilots: a lot of them are former military pilots, so they got all their training at government expense, and the industries that hire them don't have to pay for that. Pilots without a military (or police) background generally have to pay for their own training, which is extremely expensive, so not that many people do it, because these jobs don't pay that well to begin with. Without the military giving free training to all these people, a lot of industries in America wouldn't have such a cheap source of readily-trained labor and things would look very different.

mynameisnoone 2y ago

Also from startup land. I only have points 1 and 3. The salary is laughable unless you have no other option. I can make more or less a personality test seem however I want it to seem so they're about as useful as Rorschach tests and polygraphy. The no ADHD or depression requirements: well fuck me, I'll stick to failing at foolish things rather than bother with an antiquated, potentially dangerous, soon to be automated orchestration process rife with opportunities for human error, and instead take a train or ship. It's arguably safer and definitely greener.

shiroiushi 2y ago
>and instead take a train or ship. It's arguably safer and definitely greener. I'm pretty sure that cruise ships are definitely NOT greener than airplanes for intercontinental travel. (And trains are useless for such.) Some kind of ocean-going passenger ship optimized for per-passenger fuel economy probably could beat jumbo jets, but we don't have those kinds of ships. And they wouldn't be very nice: they wouldn't have swimming pools, spas, nice restaurants, etc., and instead would put people into 3-high bunk beds in shared dormitory rooms.
coldtea 2y ago
>The salary is laughable unless you have no other option. If it was just 100K would place one in the 77th percentile in the US. The 135K mentioned is 87 percentile. So hardly "laughable unless you have no other option". Maybe "laughable unless you can have a job in software engineering" or in some similar bubble. >The no ADHD or depression requirements: well fuck me, I'll stick to failing at foolish things rather than bother with an antiquated, potentially dangerous, soon to be automated orchestration process rife with opportunities for human error, and instead take a train or ship Yeah, commercial flying isn't going anywhere anytime soon. Neither is ATC personnel. And good luck getting to Europe or Latin America with a ship from the US. At least you'll have enough time to learn new hobbies.

bobthepanda 2y ago

also, and this is affecting a lot of other federal jobs or jobs requiring federal licensing like CDLs, you can't smoke weed. given how popular weed has become in legalized states, this is quickly becoming a major issue for all of these lines of work

sneak 2y ago
Personally, I think safety-critical roles like ATC should be restricted to those who don’t take recreational psychoactives of any kind, alcohol included. This includes in their off hours.
- ntumlin 2y ago
  > recreational psychoactives of any kind I’d prefer my ATC has a cup of coffee if they want it. Aside from that, what does what happens in their off hours matter provided they’re coming to work sober?
  - sneak 2y ago
    Many psychoactives have medium term effects on the brain. Regular marijuana consumption causes memory and attention deficits even when not stoned. That matters. There is even an argument that caffeine should be restricted in such roles. I certainly wouldn’t want ATC operating on too many energy drinks or coffee. If we are banning people who take antidepressants, we should also be banning people who take edibles on their day off. If we are going purely performance-based, then there should be a mandatory cognitive function test before the start of every shift, testing working memory, reaction times, coordination, etc. “sober” is a wide spectrum and encompasses “ate tons of edibles 48 hours ago and came to work on 3 hours of sleep and a five hour energy shot on the way in”.
coldtea 2y ago
>given how popular weed has become in legalized states, this is quickly becoming a major issue for all of these lines of work I'd rather my ATC is not smoking weed before arriving at the job (or worse, between breaks)... Lots of studies of how it impairs reaction times, executive function, and motor control (Of course the same goes for medicinally subscribeb anything that functions like that, including all kinds of pills)

incomingpain 2y ago

I was an air traffic controller, emphasis on was. You absolutely dont want to be one.

Suzuran 2y ago
I met a kindergarten teacher who left an ATC job for American public education because the pay was higher. Let that sink in.
- incomingpain 2y ago
  Money isn't even the factor. It's just an impossible job not worth the stress/trauma associated.
- vdqtp3 2y ago
  They probably quit before getting certified - once you're certified you make $70k minimum and that's at a shitty little tower in the midwest