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He actually says what you're arguing for is akin to saying we should give kids a bit of nicotine earlier on so they know how to smoke before they're adults and

He actually says what you're arguing for is akin to saying we should give kids a bit of nicotine earlier on so they know how to smoke before they're adults and won't be as affected by it then.

ImPostingOnHN 2y ago
I didn't find anything in the article about nicotine, but that sounds like a ridiculous comparison. Nicotine-processing skills aren't generally required for a successful life these days and in the future.
- infintropy 2y ago
  > akin
- kcplate 2y ago
  > that sounds like a ridiculous comparison So you assume social media is required for a successful life? I bet there were people that would have argued in the ‘50s and ‘60s that the social aspect of smoking was helpful to having a successful life back then too. Never mind the cancer and all being popular with your peers is what’s important.
  - ImPostingOnHN 2y ago
    > So you assume social media is required for a successful life? No, nothing in my post assumed or even suggested that. Recall the discussion was whether smartphones and tablets have any more utility than nicotine. Let's forget social media for a moment, then, since it's a red herring here. I can, and do, capably use both devices without needing to use social media. Yes, being able to use a smartphone or tablet is likely required for many successful careers, and likely more in the future. If someone looking for a job can only use a phone or tablet as well as my grandma can use a mouse, that unfortunately rules out some career options. The story is the same for me: Had I no access to computers or technology until I was an adult, I would have a totally different career path and life. Not sure I'd be as happy in that case as I am now. I don't like how "devices" are replacing full-fledged computers (maybe it's the old man in me), but that only portends more hardship for people handicapped in "on-device computing".
    - kcplate 2y ago
      The article was about social media rotting kids brains and devices being the path to that rotten apple…so remove the path. The other comment made the comparison that tobacco use doesn’t work in small bites either. You made the successful life skills connection, so it’s not a huge leap of assumption to see that you were connecting social media usage to those successful life skills. I merely made the further connection that smoking had a social connection too and was yet another rotten thing we did to ourselves and kids once upon a time. Frankly, I’d also suggest to your point that devices, computer, and coding skills are going to be less important in the future. I think coding and SW dev will become less and less a human endeavor and more a product of AI practically eliminating the vocation, but that’s not what this thread is about and I am sure not what folks on HN will want to hear. People will also manage to figure out how to utilize the tech of their time, they won’t need to be exposed to it as children. I know I wasn’t, and my nearly 90 year old mother manages to use a smartphone and tablet just fine and she didn’t even have indoor plumbing when she grew up.
      - ImPostingOnHN 2y ago
        The thread I responded to was a story about a child using a tablet, and a reply saying that particular story was "akin" to children consuming nicotine. Neither contained any mention of social media. I can, and do, capably use both tablets (and smartphones!) without needing to use social media, and we have no indication that the child in question used social media. So, let's forget social media for a moment, then, since it's a red herring here. Let's return to topic: whether the story of child tablet usage which spawned this thread is "akin to" child nicotine consumption. I appreciate your point about deep computer knowledge being less useful as HCI approaches a conversation, and can see that being a possible future as well.
  - inglor_cz 2y ago
    I wouldn't be as dismissive as you. Even at the height of smoking, around half of the population were nonsmokers. https://www.statista.com/statistics/184418/percentage-of-cigarette-smoking-in-the-us/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/184418/percentage-of-cig... How many high school kids don't have a smartphone, especially outside the poorest areas? One in thirty? Socially, it is very different being part of half of the population, and a tiny minority of the population, doubly so if it restricts your communication capabilities and you are left out of all common activities of your peers. The situation can be fixed, but a critical mass of people willing to change their current ways must gather and be willing to sacrifice some efficiency and comfort for the sake of personal contact.
    - kcplate 2y ago
      Not being dismissive, but if 1 kid in 30 doesn’t smoke, but 29 do, that doesn’t make smoking any less dangerous.
tpmoney 2y ago
If you switch nicotine out for a different socially acceptable drug – alcohol – and suddenly that's not so unreasonable. It's long been argued that the US model of "no alcohol until you're 21" followed by full (and largely unsupervised) access to as much alcohol as you can afford leads to more young adult problems with alcohol than something more akin to various western European cultures where some small degree of supervised alcohol consumption before being legally allowed to buy and consume unlimited amounts. I see this a lot where "${thing} is bad" leads to people saying "we should stop letting people have ${thing}" and trying to raise kids as if ${thing} doesn't exist or as if they can choose to not be addicted / influenced by ${thing}, regardless of how realistic that is. Pick your vice, sex, drugs, guns, rock and roll, pop music, movies, TV, the internet at large, social media, communism, capitalism, socialism, fascism, power tools, knives, etc. And it seems to me, more often than not, heavily "abstinence only" treatment of ${thing} results in far more harm than in trying to model ways to healthily deal with the fact that ${thing} exists and may vary well be something you have to deal with. I think of it like an immune system response. Your body needs to encounter pathogens in order to learn how to deal with them. Sure it would be ideal if you never ever got sick at all. But since that's basically impossible, and we know that trying to do that often results in unintended side effects, it's better instead to teach people (and their immune systems) how to deal with things. People get taught to wash their hands, cover their mouths, and immune systems get vaccines, and exposure to pathogens by not keeping our kids in hermetically sealed environments. Should you go out an intentionally get your kid sick? No, generally speaking you shouldn't. But that's exactly the goal of a vaccine. Get your body a little sick, so that it's better prepared to deal with the real thing when it gets there. Or see also chicken pox parties (though I don't know if that's still a thing or even recommended anymore)
wombatpm 2y ago
That’s why I remain in favor of the 21 drinking age. By the time you turn 21 you’ve had several years of drinking experience and can handle it responsibly

He actually says what you're arguing for is akin to saying we should give kids a bit of nicotine earlier on so they know how to smoke before they're adults and won't be as affected by it then.

ImPostingOnHN 2y ago

I didn't find anything in the article about nicotine, but that sounds like a ridiculous comparison. Nicotine-processing skills aren't generally required for a successful life these days and in the future.

infintropy 2y ago
> akin
kcplate 2y ago
> that sounds like a ridiculous comparison So you assume social media is required for a successful life? I bet there were people that would have argued in the ‘50s and ‘60s that the social aspect of smoking was helpful to having a successful life back then too. Never mind the cancer and all being popular with your peers is what’s important.
- ImPostingOnHN 2y ago
  > So you assume social media is required for a successful life? No, nothing in my post assumed or even suggested that. Recall the discussion was whether smartphones and tablets have any more utility than nicotine. Let's forget social media for a moment, then, since it's a red herring here. I can, and do, capably use both devices without needing to use social media. Yes, being able to use a smartphone or tablet is likely required for many successful careers, and likely more in the future. If someone looking for a job can only use a phone or tablet as well as my grandma can use a mouse, that unfortunately rules out some career options. The story is the same for me: Had I no access to computers or technology until I was an adult, I would have a totally different career path and life. Not sure I'd be as happy in that case as I am now. I don't like how "devices" are replacing full-fledged computers (maybe it's the old man in me), but that only portends more hardship for people handicapped in "on-device computing".
  - kcplate 2y ago
    The article was about social media rotting kids brains and devices being the path to that rotten apple…so remove the path. The other comment made the comparison that tobacco use doesn’t work in small bites either. You made the successful life skills connection, so it’s not a huge leap of assumption to see that you were connecting social media usage to those successful life skills. I merely made the further connection that smoking had a social connection too and was yet another rotten thing we did to ourselves and kids once upon a time. Frankly, I’d also suggest to your point that devices, computer, and coding skills are going to be less important in the future. I think coding and SW dev will become less and less a human endeavor and more a product of AI practically eliminating the vocation, but that’s not what this thread is about and I am sure not what folks on HN will want to hear. People will also manage to figure out how to utilize the tech of their time, they won’t need to be exposed to it as children. I know I wasn’t, and my nearly 90 year old mother manages to use a smartphone and tablet just fine and she didn’t even have indoor plumbing when she grew up.
    - ImPostingOnHN 2y ago
      The thread I responded to was a story about a child using a tablet, and a reply saying that particular story was "akin" to children consuming nicotine. Neither contained any mention of social media. I can, and do, capably use both tablets (and smartphones!) without needing to use social media, and we have no indication that the child in question used social media. So, let's forget social media for a moment, then, since it's a red herring here. Let's return to topic: whether the story of child tablet usage which spawned this thread is "akin to" child nicotine consumption. I appreciate your point about deep computer knowledge being less useful as HCI approaches a conversation, and can see that being a possible future as well.
- inglor_cz 2y ago
  I wouldn't be as dismissive as you. Even at the height of smoking, around half of the population were nonsmokers. https://www.statista.com/statistics/184418/percentage-of-cigarette-smoking-in-the-us/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/184418/percentage-of-cig... How many high school kids don't have a smartphone, especially outside the poorest areas? One in thirty? Socially, it is very different being part of half of the population, and a tiny minority of the population, doubly so if it restricts your communication capabilities and you are left out of all common activities of your peers. The situation can be fixed, but a critical mass of people willing to change their current ways must gather and be willing to sacrifice some efficiency and comfort for the sake of personal contact.
  - kcplate 2y ago
    Not being dismissive, but if 1 kid in 30 doesn’t smoke, but 29 do, that doesn’t make smoking any less dangerous.

tpmoney 2y ago

If you switch nicotine out for a different socially acceptable drug – alcohol – and suddenly that's not so unreasonable. It's long been argued that the US model of "no alcohol until you're 21" followed by full (and largely unsupervised) access to as much alcohol as you can afford leads to more young adult problems with alcohol than something more akin to various western European cultures where some small degree of supervised alcohol consumption before being legally allowed to buy and consume unlimited amounts. I see this a lot where "${thing} is bad" leads to people saying "we should stop letting people have ${thing}" and trying to raise kids as if ${thing} doesn't exist or as if they can choose to not be addicted / influenced by ${thing}, regardless of how realistic that is. Pick your vice, sex, drugs, guns, rock and roll, pop music, movies, TV, the internet at large, social media, communism, capitalism, socialism, fascism, power tools, knives, etc. And it seems to me, more often than not, heavily "abstinence only" treatment of ${thing} results in far more harm than in trying to model ways to healthily deal with the fact that ${thing} exists and may vary well be something you have to deal with. I think of it like an immune system response. Your body needs to encounter pathogens in order to learn how to deal with them. Sure it would be ideal if you never ever got sick at all. But since that's basically impossible, and we know that trying to do that often results in unintended side effects, it's better instead to teach people (and their immune systems) how to deal with things. People get taught to wash their hands, cover their mouths, and immune systems get vaccines, and exposure to pathogens by not keeping our kids in hermetically sealed environments. Should you go out an intentionally get your kid sick? No, generally speaking you shouldn't. But that's exactly the goal of a vaccine. Get your body a little sick, so that it's better prepared to deal with the real thing when it gets there. Or see also chicken pox parties (though I don't know if that's still a thing or even recommended anymore)

wombatpm 2y ago

That’s why I remain in favor of the 21 drinking age. By the time you turn 21 you’ve had several years of drinking experience and can handle it responsibly