6 ms·

This push for tech abstinence will end much like sex abstinence. Instead of "wait until you're an adult" we should instead be teaching our child good habits. Th

by iteria 2y ago

This push for tech abstinence will end much like sex abstinence. Instead of "wait until you're an adult" we should instead be teaching our child good habits. The issue is of course that most adults don't have good habits for children to modle either. My daughter has had access to a tablet since she was 12 months old. She's 5 currently, but she's not a tablet zombie as I so commonly see reported of toddlers with free access to phones. Just yesterday, my daughter freely, without my intervention, put away her tablet to play with a child who happened into the room we were in. She never touched it again until we were bad into the car and begged me to leave and play with her new friend outside instead of ask for another set of headphones for the friend. This is the result of my international teaching of my daughter about how we interact with devices. As someone who grew up with the internet in elementary school, I feel extremely confident, I can keep this up even as my preschooler turns into a kid into a teen. I just think it's a shame that I'm surrounded by parents with intention of teaching her kids about how to responsibly use their devices or they want to deny their kid access at all like somehow their child will magically manifest all the skills they need to deal with infinite stroll once they turn 18.

blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
I guess my observation is that most parents, even competent ones, fail to get this right and end up with phone or tablet addicted children. Maybe there is some approach that teaches them a better way, but I wonder if avoiding devices entirely is a less risky path if you aren’t confident in your ability to teach them how to use devices. > This is the result of my international teaching of my daughter about how we interact with devices. Do you mean like exposure to how different cultures live with technology?
- forgetfreeman 2y ago
  There's an assumption lurking here that I feel needs to be dragged out into the open. This entire line of reasoning assumes that there is something teachable that would circumvent screen addiction, with a secondary assumption that kids are programmable and will accept whatever instruction is provided regardless of competing inputs. This seems questionable that a child can be armed to compete against a couple decades of psyops research by some of the best funded private organizations on the planet.
readyman 2y ago
>This is the result of my international teaching of my daughter about how we interact with devices. No. It's the result of you having time to spend with her instead of working 2 or 3 back-breaking jobs like many parents have to, and her having a safe and stable material livelihood so she doesn't constantly desire escape.
- foobarian 2y ago
  They could just be lucky, and have a kid with that kind of attitude (on top of the things you mentioned). I've seen a number of stable families (at least outwardly) around school/work whose kids are glued to the damn things. What really makes me sad is when I'm at a restaurant or shop or similar and there is a parent with a small child getting restless and they pacify them by sticking a phone with Youtube in their face.
  - readyman 2y ago
    My point is that they are wrong about which parts of their good parenting are causing the good outcome, which is important because if I'm right then we should understand the problem more as a failure of society than a failure of parenting. Of course anyone can be a bad parent, but being a good parent might require having a certain amount of material security and wealth. Not such a crazy idea if you think about it.
    - achillesheels 2y ago
      It’s a correlation to be sure. But also inter-generational family habits, like inculcation values of meriting good habits, e.g. discipline. Some families like that basic history.
- techn1kal 2y ago
  [dead]
- elevatedastalt 2y ago
  You're being down voted but you're right. You need a support system to be able to model good behavior. If you barely have energy to make it to bed at night then you definitely won't have energy to entertain a hyperactive toddler. Things like having grandparents help raise kids and spend time with them instead of turning on YouTube can help.
xutopia 2y ago
He actually says what you're arguing for is akin to saying we should give kids a bit of nicotine earlier on so they know how to smoke before they're adults and won't be as affected by it then.
- ImPostingOnHN 2y ago
  I didn't find anything in the article about nicotine, but that sounds like a ridiculous comparison. Nicotine-processing skills aren't generally required for a successful life these days and in the future.
  - infintropy 2y ago
    > akin
  - kcplate 2y ago
    > that sounds like a ridiculous comparison So you assume social media is required for a successful life? I bet there were people that would have argued in the ‘50s and ‘60s that the social aspect of smoking was helpful to having a successful life back then too. Never mind the cancer and all being popular with your peers is what’s important.
    - ImPostingOnHN 2y ago
      > So you assume social media is required for a successful life? No, nothing in my post assumed or even suggested that. Recall the discussion was whether smartphones and tablets have any more utility than nicotine. Let's forget social media for a moment, then, since it's a red herring here. I can, and do, capably use both devices without needing to use social media. Yes, being able to use a smartphone or tablet is likely required for many successful careers, and likely more in the future. If someone looking for a job can only use a phone or tablet as well as my grandma can use a mouse, that unfortunately rules out some career options. The story is the same for me: Had I no access to computers or technology until I was an adult, I would have a totally different career path and life. Not sure I'd be as happy in that case as I am now. I don't like how "devices" are replacing full-fledged computers (maybe it's the old man in me), but that only portends more hardship for people handicapped in "on-device computing".
gnicholas 2y ago
What qualifies as good habits for a tween using TikTok or instagram, and is it actually reasonable to expect their developing brains to be able to carry out instructions regarding limiting their usage of highly-addictive platforms?
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
adolph 2y ago
> This is the result of my [intentional] teaching This is a key part. As a parent it’s hard to distinguish between parent guidance and the way the kid would be even without our intervention. In any case, Haidt’s argument is one of public health. The claim is that many/most parents don’t know how to provide that teaching even if they were of a mind to be intentional about parenting. > like somehow their child will magically manifest all the skills they need to deal . . . once they turn 18 There are so many things like this. Fortunately one’s offspring need not get cut off at 18. The challenge is progressively cutting apron strings so any particular threshold isn’t a cliff.
ajma 2y ago
I was very much going to take a similar approach to help train a child to know what the right behavior is. I have four children and it turns out they're all very different in terms of varying amounts of self control. I can definitely with my second one to use it at appropriate times but my oldest is way too impulsive and doesn't have the self control to exercise good behaviors (this isn't just a smartphone problem).
- fma 2y ago
  I'm in the same boat...2 kids. The one who always wants a tablet also always want snacks and candy. Any good resources on curbing this before it gets worse?
  - javajosh 2y ago
    I would suggest approaching the impulsive kid as a trainer might approach a dog. Determine what the motivation is, and then use that as leverage to get the behavior that you want (and which is better for the child). So, if you want them to practice reading, offer the tablet or candy as a reward for a certain amount of time or, perhaps better, a certain realistic goal. You haven't mentioned anything about ages or other personality characteristics, which has a big influence on this sort of approach, so take with a big grain of salt. I love my kids more than life, but I find a lot of dog training stuff crosses over very well. I taught them "come" command from an early age - and they know to come immediately, without question. The idea being if they are in a dangerous situation, like in the middle of a street or about to be hit by a bike or something, that this is how I will get them out of it. I don't use the command very often, but damn if those kids don't come running! It makes me feel so much safer.
    - rudasn 2y ago
      I really believe having two rescue dogs (with their own issues) before having kids was a really good intro on how to set expectations and build up patience.
    - eszed 2y ago
      This is dead on. I find, however, that you have to be careful about revealing your secret, at least in so many words. I had (more or less) the following interaction with a parent we see occasionally: Them: "How'd you get $oneYearOld to do $that?" Me: [Explains] Them: "That's clever" Me (unguardedly): "Yeah, it's basically like dog-training - [more or less what you said]." Them: [Dirty look] A year on I don't think they've started another conversation with me. Lol. I have the "bad parent" rep, but everyone likes our kid, so I really, really don't care. [Edit: It's all positive reinforcement, mind. I'm not yelling or beating the kid, or anything like that. The objection is to a mental association between the child and an animal. My wife initially had the same.
criddell 2y ago
> we should be teaching our child good habits If it’s parents and teachers vs legions of well-funded PhDs at Meta and TikTok, I know who I would bet on winning…
- elevatedastalt 2y ago
  It's still about good habits and modelling good behavior. Millions of dollars of research goes into making Doritos and Coca Cola hyper palatable yet it's been 5 years since I tasted either of them. It's more holistic than just telling your kids to not eat Doritos. You have to inculcate skills and decision making. Such as the ability to cook delicious food. The ability to meal plan and shop accordingly. If you have no idea how to cook, no cultural norms about eating out only once in a while as a treat rather than a habit, then when you're hungry you'll jump for the packet of chips. Unfortunately not only are we slowly forgetting these skills, we also come up with galaxy brained theories about why that's a good thing.
s1artibartfast 2y ago
Hadiat's views aren't as different as you might think. He distinguishes between tech and social media specifically. He thinks tech and the internet are great for kids. However, he thinks that social media before developing meatspace social skills is very damaging, especially for teen girls. I think his takes are pretty accurate.
bdw5204 2y ago
I don't see anything good coming from depriving teens of their freedom of speech as a scapegoat for mental health problems that are caused by other factors in the first place. The problem is with a society where we deprive minors of their freedom and independence because we refuse to pay for basic public safety and basic public transportation. Instead, we make helicopter parenting into the norm and then blame the one domain (the internet) where they are capable of experiencing some freedom for the problems caused by a lack of freedom. If we actually want to fix the youth mental health problem, we need to ensure that kids can safely go outside and play or go places without parents having to follow them 24/7 like they could in past generations.
- kwhitefoot 2y ago
  > we need to ensure that kids can safely go outside and play or go places without parents having to follow them 24/7 like they could in past generations. Where in the world is it unsafe for children to play outside? As far as I can see children don't play outside simply because they are not encouraged to.
  - bdw5204 2y ago
    My impression has been that it is common in the US for jerks to call the cops and/or CPS if they see kids playing outside without an adult around. A couple examples: https://www.nydailynews.com/2014/09/17/neighbor-calls-cops-child-services-on-texas-mom-for-letting-son-play-outside/ https://www.nydailynews.com/2014/09/17/neighbor-calls-cops-c... https://reason.com/2023/03/09/teaneck-new-jersey-arrest-kids-parents-cps-police/ https://reason.com/2023/03/09/teaneck-new-jersey-arrest-kids...
    - kwhitefoot 2y ago
      Ah, I had the wrong kind of unsafe in mind.

by iteria 2y ago

blackeyeblitzar 2y ago

I guess my observation is that most parents, even competent ones, fail to get this right and end up with phone or tablet addicted children. Maybe there is some approach that teaches them a better way, but I wonder if avoiding devices entirely is a less risky path if you aren’t confident in your ability to teach them how to use devices. > This is the result of my international teaching of my daughter about how we interact with devices. Do you mean like exposure to how different cultures live with technology?

forgetfreeman 2y ago
There's an assumption lurking here that I feel needs to be dragged out into the open. This entire line of reasoning assumes that there is something teachable that would circumvent screen addiction, with a secondary assumption that kids are programmable and will accept whatever instruction is provided regardless of competing inputs. This seems questionable that a child can be armed to compete against a couple decades of psyops research by some of the best funded private organizations on the planet.

readyman 2y ago

>This is the result of my international teaching of my daughter about how we interact with devices. No. It's the result of you having time to spend with her instead of working 2 or 3 back-breaking jobs like many parents have to, and her having a safe and stable material livelihood so she doesn't constantly desire escape.

foobarian 2y ago
They could just be lucky, and have a kid with that kind of attitude (on top of the things you mentioned). I've seen a number of stable families (at least outwardly) around school/work whose kids are glued to the damn things. What really makes me sad is when I'm at a restaurant or shop or similar and there is a parent with a small child getting restless and they pacify them by sticking a phone with Youtube in their face.
- readyman 2y ago
  My point is that they are wrong about which parts of their good parenting are causing the good outcome, which is important because if I'm right then we should understand the problem more as a failure of society than a failure of parenting. Of course anyone can be a bad parent, but being a good parent might require having a certain amount of material security and wealth. Not such a crazy idea if you think about it.
  - achillesheels 2y ago
    It’s a correlation to be sure. But also inter-generational family habits, like inculcation values of meriting good habits, e.g. discipline. Some families like that basic history.
techn1kal 2y ago
[dead]
elevatedastalt 2y ago
You're being down voted but you're right. You need a support system to be able to model good behavior. If you barely have energy to make it to bed at night then you definitely won't have energy to entertain a hyperactive toddler. Things like having grandparents help raise kids and spend time with them instead of turning on YouTube can help.

xutopia 2y ago

He actually says what you're arguing for is akin to saying we should give kids a bit of nicotine earlier on so they know how to smoke before they're adults and won't be as affected by it then.

ImPostingOnHN 2y ago
I didn't find anything in the article about nicotine, but that sounds like a ridiculous comparison. Nicotine-processing skills aren't generally required for a successful life these days and in the future.
- infintropy 2y ago
  > akin
- kcplate 2y ago
  > that sounds like a ridiculous comparison So you assume social media is required for a successful life? I bet there were people that would have argued in the ‘50s and ‘60s that the social aspect of smoking was helpful to having a successful life back then too. Never mind the cancer and all being popular with your peers is what’s important.
  - ImPostingOnHN 2y ago
    > So you assume social media is required for a successful life? No, nothing in my post assumed or even suggested that. Recall the discussion was whether smartphones and tablets have any more utility than nicotine. Let's forget social media for a moment, then, since it's a red herring here. I can, and do, capably use both devices without needing to use social media. Yes, being able to use a smartphone or tablet is likely required for many successful careers, and likely more in the future. If someone looking for a job can only use a phone or tablet as well as my grandma can use a mouse, that unfortunately rules out some career options. The story is the same for me: Had I no access to computers or technology until I was an adult, I would have a totally different career path and life. Not sure I'd be as happy in that case as I am now. I don't like how "devices" are replacing full-fledged computers (maybe it's the old man in me), but that only portends more hardship for people handicapped in "on-device computing".

gnicholas 2y ago

What qualifies as good habits for a tween using TikTok or instagram, and is it actually reasonable to expect their developing brains to be able to carry out instructions regarding limiting their usage of highly-addictive platforms?

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

adolph 2y ago

> This is the result of my [intentional] teaching This is a key part. As a parent it’s hard to distinguish between parent guidance and the way the kid would be even without our intervention. In any case, Haidt’s argument is one of public health. The claim is that many/most parents don’t know how to provide that teaching even if they were of a mind to be intentional about parenting. > like somehow their child will magically manifest all the skills they need to deal . . . once they turn 18 There are so many things like this. Fortunately one’s offspring need not get cut off at 18. The challenge is progressively cutting apron strings so any particular threshold isn’t a cliff.

ajma 2y ago

I was very much going to take a similar approach to help train a child to know what the right behavior is. I have four children and it turns out they're all very different in terms of varying amounts of self control. I can definitely with my second one to use it at appropriate times but my oldest is way too impulsive and doesn't have the self control to exercise good behaviors (this isn't just a smartphone problem).

fma 2y ago
I'm in the same boat...2 kids. The one who always wants a tablet also always want snacks and candy. Any good resources on curbing this before it gets worse?
- javajosh 2y ago
  I would suggest approaching the impulsive kid as a trainer might approach a dog. Determine what the motivation is, and then use that as leverage to get the behavior that you want (and which is better for the child). So, if you want them to practice reading, offer the tablet or candy as a reward for a certain amount of time or, perhaps better, a certain realistic goal. You haven't mentioned anything about ages or other personality characteristics, which has a big influence on this sort of approach, so take with a big grain of salt. I love my kids more than life, but I find a lot of dog training stuff crosses over very well. I taught them "come" command from an early age - and they know to come immediately, without question. The idea being if they are in a dangerous situation, like in the middle of a street or about to be hit by a bike or something, that this is how I will get them out of it. I don't use the command very often, but damn if those kids don't come running! It makes me feel so much safer.
  - rudasn 2y ago
    I really believe having two rescue dogs (with their own issues) before having kids was a really good intro on how to set expectations and build up patience.
  - eszed 2y ago
    This is dead on. I find, however, that you have to be careful about revealing your secret, at least in so many words. I had (more or less) the following interaction with a parent we see occasionally: Them: "How'd you get $oneYearOld to do $that?" Me: [Explains] Them: "That's clever" Me (unguardedly): "Yeah, it's basically like dog-training - [more or less what you said]." Them: [Dirty look] A year on I don't think they've started another conversation with me. Lol. I have the "bad parent" rep, but everyone likes our kid, so I really, really don't care. [Edit: It's all positive reinforcement, mind. I'm not yelling or beating the kid, or anything like that. The objection is to a mental association between the child and an animal. My wife initially had the same.

criddell 2y ago

> we should be teaching our child good habits If it’s parents and teachers vs legions of well-funded PhDs at Meta and TikTok, I know who I would bet on winning…

elevatedastalt 2y ago
It's still about good habits and modelling good behavior. Millions of dollars of research goes into making Doritos and Coca Cola hyper palatable yet it's been 5 years since I tasted either of them. It's more holistic than just telling your kids to not eat Doritos. You have to inculcate skills and decision making. Such as the ability to cook delicious food. The ability to meal plan and shop accordingly. If you have no idea how to cook, no cultural norms about eating out only once in a while as a treat rather than a habit, then when you're hungry you'll jump for the packet of chips. Unfortunately not only are we slowly forgetting these skills, we also come up with galaxy brained theories about why that's a good thing.

s1artibartfast 2y ago

Hadiat's views aren't as different as you might think. He distinguishes between tech and social media specifically. He thinks tech and the internet are great for kids. However, he thinks that social media before developing meatspace social skills is very damaging, especially for teen girls. I think his takes are pretty accurate.

bdw5204 2y ago

I don't see anything good coming from depriving teens of their freedom of speech as a scapegoat for mental health problems that are caused by other factors in the first place. The problem is with a society where we deprive minors of their freedom and independence because we refuse to pay for basic public safety and basic public transportation. Instead, we make helicopter parenting into the norm and then blame the one domain (the internet) where they are capable of experiencing some freedom for the problems caused by a lack of freedom. If we actually want to fix the youth mental health problem, we need to ensure that kids can safely go outside and play or go places without parents having to follow them 24/7 like they could in past generations.

kwhitefoot 2y ago
> we need to ensure that kids can safely go outside and play or go places without parents having to follow them 24/7 like they could in past generations. Where in the world is it unsafe for children to play outside? As far as I can see children don't play outside simply because they are not encouraged to.
- bdw5204 2y ago
  My impression has been that it is common in the US for jerks to call the cops and/or CPS if they see kids playing outside without an adult around. A couple examples: https://www.nydailynews.com/2014/09/17/neighbor-calls-cops-child-services-on-texas-mom-for-letting-son-play-outside/ https://www.nydailynews.com/2014/09/17/neighbor-calls-cops-c... https://reason.com/2023/03/09/teaneck-new-jersey-arrest-kids-parents-cps-police/ https://reason.com/2023/03/09/teaneck-new-jersey-arrest-kids...
  - kwhitefoot 2y ago
    Ah, I had the wrong kind of unsafe in mind.