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The species with the greatest fertility (prokaryotes) are the least intelligent. (and looking at r-selected vs K-selected species in general the inverse relati

The species with the greatest fertility (prokaryotes) are the least intelligent. (and looking at r-selected vs K-selected species in general the inverse relationship seems to hold: greater intelligence correlates with lower litter size; compare frogs and rats)

somenameforme 3y ago
Yes, and K-selected species are much more likely to end up dying off. So we're considering an intelligent species that both managed to stay intelligent and also managed to survive against numerous predictable obstacles, including even overcoming hedonism itself which we may one day be able to 'produce' as infinitely and cheaply as anything else. It really limits the practically viable type of groups that we'd run into, and largely rejects the overwhelming majority of the tropes of sci-fi. Because most utopic visions in sci-fi assume a sort of post-scarcity universe where practically everything is available in practically infinite quantities. Yet exactly 0 (to my knowledge) have ever explained how this didn't just result in mass self indulgence driving an extinction level fertility crisis. In fact the only episode I can even think of that hit on this was "The Game" [1] in Star Trek, and it ended up being some trite story about the addiction being used as a foreign weapon, and not as an naturally emergent self destructive behavior of a society that surpasses certain technical/material milestones. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Game_(Star_Trek:_The_Next_Generation) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Game_(Star_Trek:_The_Next_...
- 082349872349872 3y ago
  If I ever stop seeing youngsters around me pairing off, or the slightly less young having children, I'll start worrying about wireheaded fertility crises. Until then I'm burning cycles on more pressing sci-fi inspired problems, like whether or not it is ethical to derive sustenance from Eloi if you just drink their blood (like the Maasai?) instead of eating them (like the Fore?).
  - somenameforme 3y ago
    Perception can be tricky on this issue because each and every female having an average of 1 child would be a catastrophic level fertility crisis. Japan is falling into complete demographic collapse right now, and that's with each and every female having an average of 1.3 children. So I mean imagine what that would look like. If you look at 6 couples and all have at least 1 child, with 2 of them having 2 - then it seems ridiculous to think about fertility issues as being critical. Yet, paradoxically, that's Japan - that is a ~1.33 fertility rate. And it means you are trending towards complete demographic collapse, all the while baby diapers are selling perfectly fine. And as that collapse kicks in, we'll likely see a vicious cycle - a rapidly shrinking economy and collapsing demography will likely trigger even lower fertility rates. As for wireheading - I didn't want to nitpick that post, but that was not not quite what I am talking about. Rather, wireheading would be an example of the more general concept of some sort of a pleasure device. Given the state of fertility today, it's arguable that something as simple as the internet would suffice. All you need is something that people are content to engage in, in lieu of our natural biological instincts.
    - 082349872349872 3y ago
      Collapsing demography due to the Black Death didn't trigger either demographic collapse or lower fertility rates: https://www.researchgate.net/profile/David-Samways/publication/325659204/figure/fig4/AS:635568841035778@1528542828608/European-Population-at-the-time-of-the-Great-Plague-from-Langer-1964.png https://www.researchgate.net/profile/David-Samways/publicati... Tell you what, how about I tackle sustainable ethical Eloi husbandry, and you tackle the fertility crisis? If you have a uterus, this should be no problem: you're not covered by Jockey Club rules, so AI is an option, and if you prefer live cover, you probably don't even need to pay for the jumps. If you don't have a uterus, it'll be slightly more difficult, but I get 13m ghits for tradwife, so you ought to be able to find someone with a uterus who can be convinced to have 4-12 children? Then there's always the A Boy and his Dog (1975) repopulation solution...
      - somenameforme 3y ago

somenameforme 3y ago

Yes, and K-selected species are much more likely to end up dying off. So we're considering an intelligent species that both managed to stay intelligent and also managed to survive against numerous predictable obstacles, including even overcoming hedonism itself which we may one day be able to 'produce' as infinitely and cheaply as anything else. It really limits the practically viable type of groups that we'd run into, and largely rejects the overwhelming majority of the tropes of sci-fi. Because most utopic visions in sci-fi assume a sort of post-scarcity universe where practically everything is available in practically infinite quantities. Yet exactly 0 (to my knowledge) have ever explained how this didn't just result in mass self indulgence driving an extinction level fertility crisis. In fact the only episode I can even think of that hit on this was "The Game" [1] in Star Trek, and it ended up being some trite story about the addiction being used as a foreign weapon, and not as an naturally emergent self destructive behavior of a society that surpasses certain technical/material milestones. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Game_(Star_Trek:_The_Next_Generation) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Game_(Star_Trek:_The_Next_...

082349872349872 3y ago
If I ever stop seeing youngsters around me pairing off, or the slightly less young having children, I'll start worrying about wireheaded fertility crises. Until then I'm burning cycles on more pressing sci-fi inspired problems, like whether or not it is ethical to derive sustenance from Eloi if you just drink their blood (like the Maasai?) instead of eating them (like the Fore?).
- somenameforme 3y ago
  Perception can be tricky on this issue because each and every female having an average of 1 child would be a catastrophic level fertility crisis. Japan is falling into complete demographic collapse right now, and that's with each and every female having an average of 1.3 children. So I mean imagine what that would look like. If you look at 6 couples and all have at least 1 child, with 2 of them having 2 - then it seems ridiculous to think about fertility issues as being critical. Yet, paradoxically, that's Japan - that is a ~1.33 fertility rate. And it means you are trending towards complete demographic collapse, all the while baby diapers are selling perfectly fine. And as that collapse kicks in, we'll likely see a vicious cycle - a rapidly shrinking economy and collapsing demography will likely trigger even lower fertility rates. As for wireheading - I didn't want to nitpick that post, but that was not not quite what I am talking about. Rather, wireheading would be an example of the more general concept of some sort of a pleasure device. Given the state of fertility today, it's arguable that something as simple as the internet would suffice. All you need is something that people are content to engage in, in lieu of our natural biological instincts.
  - 082349872349872 3y ago
    Collapsing demography due to the Black Death didn't trigger either demographic collapse or lower fertility rates: https://www.researchgate.net/profile/David-Samways/publication/325659204/figure/fig4/AS:635568841035778@1528542828608/European-Population-at-the-time-of-the-Great-Plague-from-Langer-1964.png https://www.researchgate.net/profile/David-Samways/publicati... Tell you what, how about I tackle sustainable ethical Eloi husbandry, and you tackle the fertility crisis? If you have a uterus, this should be no problem: you're not covered by Jockey Club rules, so AI is an option, and if you prefer live cover, you probably don't even need to pay for the jumps. If you don't have a uterus, it'll be slightly more difficult, but I get 13m ghits for tradwife, so you ought to be able to find someone with a uterus who can be convinced to have 4-12 children? Then there's always the A Boy and his Dog (1975) repopulation solution...
    - somenameforme 3y ago