5 ms·

It's all about fertility, reproduction. When intelligence offers a greater chance of fertility, that species will trend towards becoming more intelligent. In th

It's all about fertility, reproduction. When intelligence offers a greater chance of fertility, that species will trend towards becoming more intelligent. In the scenario where intelligence starts to become an impediment to reproduction, like exactly what is happening right now with humans, then a species will start to become less intelligent. So for an alien species to succeed, they're likely to need to adopt some sort of ideology that: - Keeps fertility high - Keeps outward motivation up - Protects from pleasure traps Explaining parts 2&3 - imagine we create some sort of virtual device that one plugs in and it just basically gives you endless pleasure. If enough people would be interested in such a device, it could easily destroy a species. A rather odd 'great filter' of the Fermi Paradox. It's a species not going out with a bang or a whimper, but something more like a moan. Similarly, if people are just comfortable enough with what and where they are, then they may not have the motivation to carry out the massive work required to actually explore the stars. Putting these altogether, I wouldn't be entirely surprised if the first intelligent alien species we meet immediately begins trying to convert us to their God(s). Convert all the infidels of the universe seems like one sure fire solution for all the above. It also sets the stage for dystopia for those who choose not to acknowledge the grace of Qzar'dn the Almighty.

082349872349872 3y ago
The species with the greatest fertility (prokaryotes) are the least intelligent. (and looking at r-selected vs K-selected species in general the inverse relationship seems to hold: greater intelligence correlates with lower litter size; compare frogs and rats)
- somenameforme 3y ago
  Yes, and K-selected species are much more likely to end up dying off. So we're considering an intelligent species that both managed to stay intelligent and also managed to survive against numerous predictable obstacles, including even overcoming hedonism itself which we may one day be able to 'produce' as infinitely and cheaply as anything else. It really limits the practically viable type of groups that we'd run into, and largely rejects the overwhelming majority of the tropes of sci-fi. Because most utopic visions in sci-fi assume a sort of post-scarcity universe where practically everything is available in practically infinite quantities. Yet exactly 0 (to my knowledge) have ever explained how this didn't just result in mass self indulgence driving an extinction level fertility crisis. In fact the only episode I can even think of that hit on this was "The Game" [1] in Star Trek, and it ended up being some trite story about the addiction being used as a foreign weapon, and not as an naturally emergent self destructive behavior of a society that surpasses certain technical/material milestones. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Game_(Star_Trek:_The_Next_Generation) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Game_(Star_Trek:_The_Next_...
  - 082349872349872 3y ago
    If I ever stop seeing youngsters around me pairing off, or the slightly less young having children, I'll start worrying about wireheaded fertility crises. Until then I'm burning cycles on more pressing sci-fi inspired problems, like whether or not it is ethical to derive sustenance from Eloi if you just drink their blood (like the Maasai?) instead of eating them (like the Fore?).
    - somenameforme 3y ago
      Perception can be tricky on this issue because each and every female having an average of 1 child would be a catastrophic level fertility crisis. Japan is falling into complete demographic collapse right now, and that's with each and every female having an average of 1.3 children. So I mean imagine what that would look like. If you look at 6 couples and all have at least 1 child, with 2 of them having 2 - then it seems ridiculous to think about fertility issues as being critical. Yet, paradoxically, that's Japan - that is a ~1.33 fertility rate. And it means you are trending towards complete demographic collapse, all the while baby diapers are selling perfectly fine. And as that collapse kicks in, we'll likely see a vicious cycle - a rapidly shrinking economy and collapsing demography will likely trigger even lower fertility rates. As for wireheading - I didn't want to nitpick that post, but that was not not quite what I am talking about. Rather, wireheading would be an example of the more general concept of some sort of a pleasure device. Given the state of fertility today, it's arguable that something as simple as the internet would suffice. All you need is something that people are content to engage in, in lieu of our natural biological instincts.
      - 082349872349872 3y ago
        Collapsing demography due to the Black Death didn't trigger either demographic collapse or lower fertility rates: https://www.researchgate.net/profile/David-Samways/publication/325659204/figure/fig4/AS:635568841035778@1528542828608/European-Population-at-the-time-of-the-Great-Plague-from-Langer-1964.png https://www.researchgate.net/profile/David-Samways/publicati... Tell you what, how about I tackle sustainable ethical Eloi husbandry, and you tackle the fertility crisis? If you have a uterus, this should be no problem: you're not covered by Jockey Club rules, so AI is an option, and if you prefer live cover, you probably don't even need to pay for the jumps. If you don't have a uterus, it'll be slightly more difficult, but I get 13m ghits for tradwife, so you ought to be able to find someone with a uterus who can be convinced to have 4-12 children? Then there's always the A Boy and his Dog (1975) repopulation solution...
jbboehr 3y ago
> imagine we create some sort of virtual device that one plugs in and it just basically gives you endless pleasure. There is a term for this concept: wireheading[0][1]. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wirehead_(science_fiction) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wirehead_(science_fiction) [1]: https://www.lesswrong.com/tag/wireheading https://www.lesswrong.com/tag/wireheading
- 082349872349872 3y ago
  also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_stimulation_reward#Intracranial_self-stimulation_(ICSS)_procedures https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_stimulation_reward#Intra... (I'd thought wikimedia used to have a wireheaded rat?)

082349872349872 3y ago

The species with the greatest fertility (prokaryotes) are the least intelligent. (and looking at r-selected vs K-selected species in general the inverse relationship seems to hold: greater intelligence correlates with lower litter size; compare frogs and rats)

somenameforme 3y ago
Yes, and K-selected species are much more likely to end up dying off. So we're considering an intelligent species that both managed to stay intelligent and also managed to survive against numerous predictable obstacles, including even overcoming hedonism itself which we may one day be able to 'produce' as infinitely and cheaply as anything else. It really limits the practically viable type of groups that we'd run into, and largely rejects the overwhelming majority of the tropes of sci-fi. Because most utopic visions in sci-fi assume a sort of post-scarcity universe where practically everything is available in practically infinite quantities. Yet exactly 0 (to my knowledge) have ever explained how this didn't just result in mass self indulgence driving an extinction level fertility crisis. In fact the only episode I can even think of that hit on this was "The Game" [1] in Star Trek, and it ended up being some trite story about the addiction being used as a foreign weapon, and not as an naturally emergent self destructive behavior of a society that surpasses certain technical/material milestones. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Game_(Star_Trek:_The_Next_Generation) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Game_(Star_Trek:_The_Next_...
- 082349872349872 3y ago
  If I ever stop seeing youngsters around me pairing off, or the slightly less young having children, I'll start worrying about wireheaded fertility crises. Until then I'm burning cycles on more pressing sci-fi inspired problems, like whether or not it is ethical to derive sustenance from Eloi if you just drink their blood (like the Maasai?) instead of eating them (like the Fore?).
  - somenameforme 3y ago
    Perception can be tricky on this issue because each and every female having an average of 1 child would be a catastrophic level fertility crisis. Japan is falling into complete demographic collapse right now, and that's with each and every female having an average of 1.3 children. So I mean imagine what that would look like. If you look at 6 couples and all have at least 1 child, with 2 of them having 2 - then it seems ridiculous to think about fertility issues as being critical. Yet, paradoxically, that's Japan - that is a ~1.33 fertility rate. And it means you are trending towards complete demographic collapse, all the while baby diapers are selling perfectly fine. And as that collapse kicks in, we'll likely see a vicious cycle - a rapidly shrinking economy and collapsing demography will likely trigger even lower fertility rates. As for wireheading - I didn't want to nitpick that post, but that was not not quite what I am talking about. Rather, wireheading would be an example of the more general concept of some sort of a pleasure device. Given the state of fertility today, it's arguable that something as simple as the internet would suffice. All you need is something that people are content to engage in, in lieu of our natural biological instincts.
    - 082349872349872 3y ago
      Collapsing demography due to the Black Death didn't trigger either demographic collapse or lower fertility rates: https://www.researchgate.net/profile/David-Samways/publication/325659204/figure/fig4/AS:635568841035778@1528542828608/European-Population-at-the-time-of-the-Great-Plague-from-Langer-1964.png https://www.researchgate.net/profile/David-Samways/publicati... Tell you what, how about I tackle sustainable ethical Eloi husbandry, and you tackle the fertility crisis? If you have a uterus, this should be no problem: you're not covered by Jockey Club rules, so AI is an option, and if you prefer live cover, you probably don't even need to pay for the jumps. If you don't have a uterus, it'll be slightly more difficult, but I get 13m ghits for tradwife, so you ought to be able to find someone with a uterus who can be convinced to have 4-12 children? Then there's always the A Boy and his Dog (1975) repopulation solution...

jbboehr 3y ago

> imagine we create some sort of virtual device that one plugs in and it just basically gives you endless pleasure. There is a term for this concept: wireheading[0][1]. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wirehead_(science_fiction) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wirehead_(science_fiction) [1]: https://www.lesswrong.com/tag/wireheading https://www.lesswrong.com/tag/wireheading

082349872349872 3y ago
also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_stimulation_reward#Intracranial_self-stimulation_(ICSS)_procedures https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_stimulation_reward#Intra... (I'd thought wikimedia used to have a wireheaded rat?)