4 ms·

I've been a developer for 30+ years and unfortunately there's not a lot in the OP that I can disagree with. I wish I could. Young people get told that building

I've been a developer for 30+ years and unfortunately there's not a lot in the OP that I can disagree with. I wish I could. Young people get told that building tech and software is a creative endeavour where they can apply their innate passion. Certain kinds of minds get attracted to work that is based on symbols and abstraction and repetitive activities. Years pass and the shareholders get fat. The truth is that software development is almost entirely an economic activity, and an extractive one at that. The working environment is certainly better than mining gold or bauxite, but almost all of us are hacking code out of the code-face merely to enrich other people: the people with the corner offices, and the people above them with the yachts. Those people don't care about what we do, or our pretentiona about it being an art or a craft, or what we think is important. And in fact they mostly think we're losers for wasting our time doing it [1]. Some of these people have pretty much told me this to my face. Other posters here are correct that the underlying error is looking for meaning in (corporate) work. But people need meaning, and we have to expend so much of our only lives working, that there can be few alternatives. I don't have any answers to that. [1] https://ribbonfarm.wpenginepowered.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/hughMcLeodCompanyHierarchy.jpg https://ribbonfarm.wpenginepowered.com/wp-content/uploads/20...

claytongulick 3y ago
> almost all of us are hacking code out of the code-face merely to enrich other people Colloquially known as "work". The thing we all do in order to have nice things and a society. > to enrich other people: the people with the corner offices, and the people above them with the yachts Good! That would mean the thing I produced had value. I hope everything I create has value. One day I hope that I've practiced enough, learned enough and gained enough experience and savings that I can employ others responsibly. If I have good ideas and do it right, there's a chance that I could have that yacht. It's what we call economic incentive, or "motivation".
- Lariscus 3y ago
  Wagie, wagie! Get in cagie! Boss needs help now don't be lazy Zero breaks will make you crazy I'll tell the guards to get their tazie Need to get those new iPhones Got to pay those student loans Work your fingers to the bones Bosses need vacation homes Don't trust unions, vote in pairs Buy all of boss' consumer wares We'll stay seated in our chairs And make our bosses millionaires Love your work, love the pain Feel the life drain from your brain Think of all you have to gain As your dreams go down the drain Come on wagie, join the crew! Don't you want your wages too? And if the boss man makes you blue You deserve it, you're a screw! Weekend comes 'round after ages You can come collect your wages Throw your parties, have your rages Then get back into your cages
- andyjohnson0 3y ago
  > If I have good ideas and do it right, there's a chance that I could have that yacht. It's what we call economic incentive, or "motivation". I dunno man, but you're clearly a believer. I hope it sustains you over the long-term.
  - claytongulick 3y ago
    A believer? In what? An economic system that, for all its flaws, has proven to be the most successful for the most people in all of human history? I guess so. But happy to hear about proven alternatives. > I hope it sustains you over the long-term Well, I'm about 50, started from very little, worked hard my whole life, and have managed to find a degree of success. Seems to have worked out so far. I hope it continues. Certainly better than the alternative - blaming everyone else, the successful, and "the system" and not doing as much as I could to take responsibility and better myself.
neilv 3y ago
> And in fact they mostly think we're losers for wasting our time doing it True, this happens enough places to be a thing. Of the people who think the software "little people" are losers, I think there's at least two versions: * They think the work is skilled, and that the worker has valuable expertise, and is worth listening to. Even though they still think the person is a loser for being a salaried commodity rather than a "smartest guy in the room" or "leader", like them, who's a real player with the big rewards. * They think software work is low-skilled grunt, the workers are a temporary evil, are uppity about compensation and loyalty (this is 'improving' recently) and don't know their place, and their input has no value. And of course software workers are losers in the world of business, because they don't operate and profit personally like real players do. The latter is a worse situation to be in. :)

claytongulick 3y ago

> almost all of us are hacking code out of the code-face merely to enrich other people Colloquially known as "work". The thing we all do in order to have nice things and a society. > to enrich other people: the people with the corner offices, and the people above them with the yachts Good! That would mean the thing I produced had value. I hope everything I create has value. One day I hope that I've practiced enough, learned enough and gained enough experience and savings that I can employ others responsibly. If I have good ideas and do it right, there's a chance that I could have that yacht. It's what we call economic incentive, or "motivation".

Lariscus 3y ago
Wagie, wagie! Get in cagie! Boss needs help now don't be lazy Zero breaks will make you crazy I'll tell the guards to get their tazie Need to get those new iPhones Got to pay those student loans Work your fingers to the bones Bosses need vacation homes Don't trust unions, vote in pairs Buy all of boss' consumer wares We'll stay seated in our chairs And make our bosses millionaires Love your work, love the pain Feel the life drain from your brain Think of all you have to gain As your dreams go down the drain Come on wagie, join the crew! Don't you want your wages too? And if the boss man makes you blue You deserve it, you're a screw! Weekend comes 'round after ages You can come collect your wages Throw your parties, have your rages Then get back into your cages
andyjohnson0 3y ago
> If I have good ideas and do it right, there's a chance that I could have that yacht. It's what we call economic incentive, or "motivation". I dunno man, but you're clearly a believer. I hope it sustains you over the long-term.
- claytongulick 3y ago
  A believer? In what? An economic system that, for all its flaws, has proven to be the most successful for the most people in all of human history? I guess so. But happy to hear about proven alternatives. > I hope it sustains you over the long-term Well, I'm about 50, started from very little, worked hard my whole life, and have managed to find a degree of success. Seems to have worked out so far. I hope it continues. Certainly better than the alternative - blaming everyone else, the successful, and "the system" and not doing as much as I could to take responsibility and better myself.

neilv 3y ago

> And in fact they mostly think we're losers for wasting our time doing it True, this happens enough places to be a thing. Of the people who think the software "little people" are losers, I think there's at least two versions: * They think the work is skilled, and that the worker has valuable expertise, and is worth listening to. Even though they still think the person is a loser for being a salaried commodity rather than a "smartest guy in the room" or "leader", like them, who's a real player with the big rewards. * They think software work is low-skilled grunt, the workers are a temporary evil, are uppity about compensation and loyalty (this is 'improving' recently) and don't know their place, and their input has no value. And of course software workers are losers in the world of business, because they don't operate and profit personally like real players do. The latter is a worse situation to be in. :)