4 ms·

Why would you prevent others from choosing the browser they use?

sharps1 2y ago
Allowing choice is good. All that is going to happen though is chrome will take over on iOS.
al_borland 2y ago
Safari is the only thing stopping Google from having a monopoly on the browser market. Take that away and Google will single-handedly control the future direction of the internet. While I may like the idea of browser engine choice on iOS, I think preventing Google from owning the web is more important.
- SahAssar 2y ago
  While I hate the tech-giant control of the internet as much as anybody else I don't think that restricting user choice of their browser is at all the right way to fix it. Why do you think that forcing people to use safari/webkit is a good solution?
  - al_borland 2y ago
    It’s not a perfect solution, but I’m not sure what the alternative would be that wouldn’t lead to Google’s domination. It’s still technically the market doing this, as it’s an Apple rule. People who don’t like Apple’s ways of doing things are free to use Android. I guess I’d prefer that over some kind of government enforced control. I’m also going to assume the percentage of users who know this situation exists, care, and have an actual impact to their user experience is exceptionally small. 999,999 times out of 1,000,000, when someone is downloading a different browser on their phone it isn’t for the engine, it’s to get something like tab and bookmark syncing.
    - SahAssar 2y ago
      > I guess I’d prefer that over some kind of government enforced control. You know what the "government enforced control" is? Choice. Literally, the so called "government enforced control" is giving you the choice of doing the exact same thing you did before or, if you'd like, something different. Telling people to "just use android then" will be fine when apple destructs the walls of its walled garden.
      - al_borland 2y ago
        I’m thinking further down the line. If Google ends up with 99% market share, and then the government has to come in to end the monopoly, what will that intervention look like? Some of this was seen a couple decades ago with Microsoft in Europe. With no market share left, will other companies/organizations give up on maintaining their own browser engine? Microsoft has already given up, so has Opera. Will we even have the possibility of choice? Why does Apple need to take down their walls for people to move to Android? Most people use Apple products because of the walled garden, not in spite of it. I really don’t think the walls are that high, not much higher than any other platform switch someone might do.
        SahAssar 2y ago
        > Most people use Apple products because of the walled garden, not in spite of it. I don't think this is true at all, and I suspect the users who feel this do it because a vague sense of security, not that they actually want less choice. I'm sure many iphone users would want to stick with their default apps, but I also think a lot of them would understand their co-users different choices.
        al_borland 2y ago
        Some choice is good, but too much choice can make it difficult for people. Desktop Linux is a perfect example of too much choice being a barrier widespread adoption. But that’s not really what I’m talking about, as I don’t think people are actively thinking about that. What I’m talking about is more about the walled garden that creates a space where users know their devices are going to work really well together. An iPhone with AirPods, an Apple Watch, iPad, and a MacBook are going to allow users to do more things, more easily, than if all those similar products were bought from random other companies with choice in mind. Then there are features like AirDrop that are really nice when dealing with people with other Apple products. A lot of these things get rolled out and adopted successfully because Apple has a lot of vertical integration and isn’t too worried about anything outside their garden, they just want the experience for their customers to be good, which it is. Breaking this apart in the name of choice will make these things worse, in all likelihood. This is bad for current Apple customers who enjoy having this level of integration. I view Apple products like video game consoles. No one is telling Sony they need to make Playstation VR work with the Switch, nor is anyone telling Nintendo that they need to release Tears of the Kingdom on Xbox. I don’t see how Apple is any different. These are all walled gardens. Apple is more open than the consoles. Apple makes hardware to run its software, other companies make software to run on generic hardware. These are two distinct business models and governments shouldn’t be forcing one business to operate like a completely different business. Forcing Apple to operate like Microsoft or Google is removing user choice, by eliminating their model from the market, a model a subset of users clearly like the result of. Kind of funny that no one had a problem with it for 40 years, and it’s only now that they’ve become more successful that people are trying to kill it; people who likely aren’t even Apple customers. I think a lot of these pushes for Apple to open up are being driven by people, companies, or organizations, that stand to profit from Apple failing. If customers had a problem they would stop buying the products, yet we’ve seen iOS market share go up, which likely means people are switching from Android to iOS. Why would that be if Apple is so terrible and controlling? It can’t all be about iMessage.
- thefz 2y ago
  So you actually want less freedom to avoid a future of less freedom?
almostnormal 2y ago
Enforcing webkit prevents websites from going back to "best viewed with internet explorer" today just with IE replaced by "any broweser using chromium". I don't use apple, but I do appreciate the suffering of limited choice their users endure for the effect of higher diversity. Thank you, iphone users.
- SahAssar 2y ago
  And you see that as a reason enough to prevent millions of users from choosing their browser? Are you arguing that diversity of browser engines is important, but we need to stifle/suppress diversity to ensure diversity?
  - ceejayoz 2y ago
    > And you see that as a reason enough to prevent millions of users from choosing their browser? "Only works in Chrome" will prevent millions of users from choosing a browser; Google already fucks with Firefox in spots, because they can. Anyone who built websites in the late 90s / early 2000s remembers the IE monoculture.
    - SahAssar 2y ago
      I remember the IE monoculture, and you know what broke it? Choice. Being able to install firefox, opera (and later chrome and safari) on windows, being able to install icab or other browsers on mac os even when apple shipped IE5 as the default.
      - ceejayoz 2y ago
        If IE had been a thing on iOS we might never have been free of it.
        SahAssar 2y ago
        Firefox was already at 25% when the iphone released[0]. The idea that there wasn't competition in the browserspace before the iphone is wrong. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_web_browsers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_web_browsers

Allowing choice is good. All that is going to happen though is chrome will take over on iOS.

Safari is the only thing stopping Google from having a monopoly on the browser market. Take that away and Google will single-handedly control the future direction of the internet. While I may like the idea of browser engine choice on iOS, I think preventing Google from owning the web is more important.

SahAssar 2y ago
While I hate the tech-giant control of the internet as much as anybody else I don't think that restricting user choice of their browser is at all the right way to fix it. Why do you think that forcing people to use safari/webkit is a good solution?
- al_borland 2y ago
  It’s not a perfect solution, but I’m not sure what the alternative would be that wouldn’t lead to Google’s domination. It’s still technically the market doing this, as it’s an Apple rule. People who don’t like Apple’s ways of doing things are free to use Android. I guess I’d prefer that over some kind of government enforced control. I’m also going to assume the percentage of users who know this situation exists, care, and have an actual impact to their user experience is exceptionally small. 999,999 times out of 1,000,000, when someone is downloading a different browser on their phone it isn’t for the engine, it’s to get something like tab and bookmark syncing.
  - SahAssar 2y ago
    > I guess I’d prefer that over some kind of government enforced control. You know what the "government enforced control" is? Choice. Literally, the so called "government enforced control" is giving you the choice of doing the exact same thing you did before or, if you'd like, something different. Telling people to "just use android then" will be fine when apple destructs the walls of its walled garden.
    - al_borland 2y ago
      I’m thinking further down the line. If Google ends up with 99% market share, and then the government has to come in to end the monopoly, what will that intervention look like? Some of this was seen a couple decades ago with Microsoft in Europe. With no market share left, will other companies/organizations give up on maintaining their own browser engine? Microsoft has already given up, so has Opera. Will we even have the possibility of choice? Why does Apple need to take down their walls for people to move to Android? Most people use Apple products because of the walled garden, not in spite of it. I really don’t think the walls are that high, not much higher than any other platform switch someone might do.
      - SahAssar 2y ago
        > Most people use Apple products because of the walled garden, not in spite of it. I don't think this is true at all, and I suspect the users who feel this do it because a vague sense of security, not that they actually want less choice. I'm sure many iphone users would want to stick with their default apps, but I also think a lot of them would understand their co-users different choices.
        al_borland 2y ago
        Some choice is good, but too much choice can make it difficult for people. Desktop Linux is a perfect example of too much choice being a barrier widespread adoption. But that’s not really what I’m talking about, as I don’t think people are actively thinking about that. What I’m talking about is more about the walled garden that creates a space where users know their devices are going to work really well together. An iPhone with AirPods, an Apple Watch, iPad, and a MacBook are going to allow users to do more things, more easily, than if all those similar products were bought from random other companies with choice in mind. Then there are features like AirDrop that are really nice when dealing with people with other Apple products. A lot of these things get rolled out and adopted successfully because Apple has a lot of vertical integration and isn’t too worried about anything outside their garden, they just want the experience for their customers to be good, which it is. Breaking this apart in the name of choice will make these things worse, in all likelihood. This is bad for current Apple customers who enjoy having this level of integration. I view Apple products like video game consoles. No one is telling Sony they need to make Playstation VR work with the Switch, nor is anyone telling Nintendo that they need to release Tears of the Kingdom on Xbox. I don’t see how Apple is any different. These are all walled gardens. Apple is more open than the consoles. Apple makes hardware to run its software, other companies make software to run on generic hardware. These are two distinct business models and governments shouldn’t be forcing one business to operate like a completely different business. Forcing Apple to operate like Microsoft or Google is removing user choice, by eliminating their model from the market, a model a subset of users clearly like the result of. Kind of funny that no one had a problem with it for 40 years, and it’s only now that they’ve become more successful that people are trying to kill it; people who likely aren’t even Apple customers. I think a lot of these pushes for Apple to open up are being driven by people, companies, or organizations, that stand to profit from Apple failing. If customers had a problem they would stop buying the products, yet we’ve seen iOS market share go up, which likely means people are switching from Android to iOS. Why would that be if Apple is so terrible and controlling? It can’t all be about iMessage.
thefz 2y ago
So you actually want less freedom to avoid a future of less freedom?

almostnormal 2y ago

Enforcing webkit prevents websites from going back to "best viewed with internet explorer" today just with IE replaced by "any broweser using chromium". I don't use apple, but I do appreciate the suffering of limited choice their users endure for the effect of higher diversity. Thank you, iphone users.

SahAssar 2y ago
And you see that as a reason enough to prevent millions of users from choosing their browser? Are you arguing that diversity of browser engines is important, but we need to stifle/suppress diversity to ensure diversity?
- ceejayoz 2y ago
  > And you see that as a reason enough to prevent millions of users from choosing their browser? "Only works in Chrome" will prevent millions of users from choosing a browser; Google already fucks with Firefox in spots, because they can. Anyone who built websites in the late 90s / early 2000s remembers the IE monoculture.
  - SahAssar 2y ago
    I remember the IE monoculture, and you know what broke it? Choice. Being able to install firefox, opera (and later chrome and safari) on windows, being able to install icab or other browsers on mac os even when apple shipped IE5 as the default.
    - ceejayoz 2y ago
      If IE had been a thing on iOS we might never have been free of it.
      - SahAssar 2y ago
        Firefox was already at 25% when the iphone released[0]. The idea that there wasn't competition in the browserspace before the iphone is wrong. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_web_browsers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_web_browsers