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Oh what I’d give for a real Firefox browser on iOS. I see lots of value in preventing chrome based browser from running through as they already dominate and sha

Oh what I’d give for a real Firefox browser on iOS. I see lots of value in preventing chrome based browser from running through as they already dominate and shape the web too much as it is.

gnicholas 3y ago
But iOS is WebKit, not chromium. Am I misunderstanding your concern?
- smcleod 3y ago
  Yes that’s correct. What I’m saying is I don’t think chrome based browsers should come to iOS (brave, chrome)
  - SahAssar 3y ago
    Why would you prevent others from choosing the browser they use?
    - sharps1 3y ago
      Allowing choice is good. All that is going to happen though is chrome will take over on iOS.
    - al_borland 3y ago
      Safari is the only thing stopping Google from having a monopoly on the browser market. Take that away and Google will single-handedly control the future direction of the internet. While I may like the idea of browser engine choice on iOS, I think preventing Google from owning the web is more important.
      - SahAssar 3y ago
        While I hate the tech-giant control of the internet as much as anybody else I don't think that restricting user choice of their browser is at all the right way to fix it. Why do you think that forcing people to use safari/webkit is a good solution?
        al_borland 3y ago
        It’s not a perfect solution, but I’m not sure what the alternative would be that wouldn’t lead to Google’s domination. It’s still technically the market doing this, as it’s an Apple rule. People who don’t like Apple’s ways of doing things are free to use Android. I guess I’d prefer that over some kind of government enforced control. I’m also going to assume the percentage of users who know this situation exists, care, and have an actual impact to their user experience is exceptionally small. 999,999 times out of 1,000,000, when someone is downloading a different browser on their phone it isn’t for the engine, it’s to get something like tab and bookmark syncing.
        SahAssar 3y ago
        > I guess I’d prefer that over some kind of government enforced control. You know what the "government enforced control" is? Choice. Literally, the so called "government enforced control" is giving you the choice of doing the exact same thing you did before or, if you'd like, something different. Telling people to "just use android then" will be fine when apple destructs the walls of its walled garden.
        al_borland 3y ago
        I’m thinking further down the line. If Google ends up with 99% market share, and then the government has to come in to end the monopoly, what will that intervention look like? Some of this was seen a couple decades ago with Microsoft in Europe. With no market share left, will other companies/organizations give up on maintaining their own browser engine? Microsoft has already given up, so has Opera. Will we even have the possibility of choice? Why does Apple need to take down their walls for people to move to Android? Most people use Apple products because of the walled garden, not in spite of it. I really don’t think the walls are that high, not much higher than any other platform switch someone might do.
        SahAssar 3y ago
        > Most people use Apple products because of the walled garden, not in spite of it. I don't think this is true at all, and I suspect the users who feel this do it because a vague sense of security, not that they actually want less choice. I'm sure many iphone users would want to stick with their default apps, but I also think a lot of them would understand their co-users different choices.
      - thefz 3y ago
        So you actually want less freedom to avoid a future of less freedom?
    - almostnormal 3y ago
      Enforcing webkit prevents websites from going back to "best viewed with internet explorer" today just with IE replaced by "any broweser using chromium". I don't use apple, but I do appreciate the suffering of limited choice their users endure for the effect of higher diversity. Thank you, iphone users.
      - SahAssar 3y ago
        And you see that as a reason enough to prevent millions of users from choosing their browser? Are you arguing that diversity of browser engines is important, but we need to stifle/suppress diversity to ensure diversity?
        ceejayoz 3y ago
        > And you see that as a reason enough to prevent millions of users from choosing their browser? "Only works in Chrome" will prevent millions of users from choosing a browser; Google already fucks with Firefox in spots, because they can. Anyone who built websites in the late 90s / early 2000s remembers the IE monoculture.
        SahAssar 3y ago
        I remember the IE monoculture, and you know what broke it? Choice. Being able to install firefox, opera (and later chrome and safari) on windows, being able to install icab or other browsers on mac os even when apple shipped IE5 as the default.
        ceejayoz 3y ago
        If IE had been a thing on iOS we might never have been free of it.
        SahAssar 3y ago
        Firefox was already at 25% when the iphone released[0]. The idea that there wasn't competition in the browserspace before the iphone is wrong. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_web_browsers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_web_browsers
- SahAssar 3y ago
  Some people equate blink and webkit because of their shared heritage. I think it has definitely diverged enough to be considered separate engines (like how webkit is considered separate from khtml), but some disagree.
- smcleod 3y ago
  I’m not talking about WebKit, I’m saying it would be good for the internet if chrome didn’t come to iOS
stavros 3y ago
You can move to the EU.
ceejayoz 3y ago
The changes that would permit Firefox on iOS will make Chrome’s dominance worse. Losing iOS users is the only reason we don’t have “only works in Chrome” everywhere.
drivingmenuts 3y ago
Is there a technical reason or is it just ideology?
- smcleod 3y ago
  Just googles stranglehold on the web, so yes I guess ideology

Oh what I’d give for a real Firefox browser on iOS. I see lots of value in preventing chrome based browser from running through as they already dominate and shape the web too much as it is.

gnicholas 3y ago

But iOS is WebKit, not chromium. Am I misunderstanding your concern?

smcleod 3y ago
Yes that’s correct. What I’m saying is I don’t think chrome based browsers should come to iOS (brave, chrome)
- SahAssar 3y ago
  Why would you prevent others from choosing the browser they use?
  - sharps1 3y ago
    Allowing choice is good. All that is going to happen though is chrome will take over on iOS.
  - al_borland 3y ago
    Safari is the only thing stopping Google from having a monopoly on the browser market. Take that away and Google will single-handedly control the future direction of the internet. While I may like the idea of browser engine choice on iOS, I think preventing Google from owning the web is more important.
    - SahAssar 3y ago
      While I hate the tech-giant control of the internet as much as anybody else I don't think that restricting user choice of their browser is at all the right way to fix it. Why do you think that forcing people to use safari/webkit is a good solution?
      - al_borland 3y ago
        It’s not a perfect solution, but I’m not sure what the alternative would be that wouldn’t lead to Google’s domination. It’s still technically the market doing this, as it’s an Apple rule. People who don’t like Apple’s ways of doing things are free to use Android. I guess I’d prefer that over some kind of government enforced control. I’m also going to assume the percentage of users who know this situation exists, care, and have an actual impact to their user experience is exceptionally small. 999,999 times out of 1,000,000, when someone is downloading a different browser on their phone it isn’t for the engine, it’s to get something like tab and bookmark syncing.
        SahAssar 3y ago
        > I guess I’d prefer that over some kind of government enforced control. You know what the "government enforced control" is? Choice. Literally, the so called "government enforced control" is giving you the choice of doing the exact same thing you did before or, if you'd like, something different. Telling people to "just use android then" will be fine when apple destructs the walls of its walled garden.
        al_borland 3y ago
        I’m thinking further down the line. If Google ends up with 99% market share, and then the government has to come in to end the monopoly, what will that intervention look like? Some of this was seen a couple decades ago with Microsoft in Europe. With no market share left, will other companies/organizations give up on maintaining their own browser engine? Microsoft has already given up, so has Opera. Will we even have the possibility of choice? Why does Apple need to take down their walls for people to move to Android? Most people use Apple products because of the walled garden, not in spite of it. I really don’t think the walls are that high, not much higher than any other platform switch someone might do.
        SahAssar 3y ago
        > Most people use Apple products because of the walled garden, not in spite of it. I don't think this is true at all, and I suspect the users who feel this do it because a vague sense of security, not that they actually want less choice. I'm sure many iphone users would want to stick with their default apps, but I also think a lot of them would understand their co-users different choices.
    - thefz 3y ago
      So you actually want less freedom to avoid a future of less freedom?
  - almostnormal 3y ago
    Enforcing webkit prevents websites from going back to "best viewed with internet explorer" today just with IE replaced by "any broweser using chromium". I don't use apple, but I do appreciate the suffering of limited choice their users endure for the effect of higher diversity. Thank you, iphone users.
    - SahAssar 3y ago
      And you see that as a reason enough to prevent millions of users from choosing their browser? Are you arguing that diversity of browser engines is important, but we need to stifle/suppress diversity to ensure diversity?
      - ceejayoz 3y ago
        > And you see that as a reason enough to prevent millions of users from choosing their browser? "Only works in Chrome" will prevent millions of users from choosing a browser; Google already fucks with Firefox in spots, because they can. Anyone who built websites in the late 90s / early 2000s remembers the IE monoculture.
        SahAssar 3y ago
        I remember the IE monoculture, and you know what broke it? Choice. Being able to install firefox, opera (and later chrome and safari) on windows, being able to install icab or other browsers on mac os even when apple shipped IE5 as the default.
        ceejayoz 3y ago
        If IE had been a thing on iOS we might never have been free of it.
        SahAssar 3y ago
        Firefox was already at 25% when the iphone released[0]. The idea that there wasn't competition in the browserspace before the iphone is wrong. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_web_browsers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_web_browsers
SahAssar 3y ago
Some people equate blink and webkit because of their shared heritage. I think it has definitely diverged enough to be considered separate engines (like how webkit is considered separate from khtml), but some disagree.
smcleod 3y ago
I’m not talking about WebKit, I’m saying it would be good for the internet if chrome didn’t come to iOS

stavros 3y ago

You can move to the EU.

ceejayoz 3y ago

The changes that would permit Firefox on iOS will make Chrome’s dominance worse. Losing iOS users is the only reason we don’t have “only works in Chrome” everywhere.

drivingmenuts 3y ago

Is there a technical reason or is it just ideology?

smcleod 3y ago
Just googles stranglehold on the web, so yes I guess ideology