5 ms·

If you're willing to entertain more leisurely mappers like me (i.e. those unaware of what happens in the community), care to steelman their reasons for the bloc

by Vinnl 3y ago

If you're willing to entertain more leisurely mappers like me (i.e. those unaware of what happens in the community), care to steelman their reasons for the blockade?

Freak_NL 3y ago
I've read (and engaged with) everything in that issue, but I still don't understand the vague 'well the tag is just too loosely defined' argument. I mean, sure, there is some ambiguity around the exact limit of this tag, i.e., is it only meant for ways dedicated to rapid transit bus routes, or is it for ways dedicated to any bus performing a public transport role? That is a valid question (of the kind which tends to get answered in the OSM project with the passage of time and observing the actual usage of the tag), but, and at the end of the day, ways tagged with highway=busway are undeniably: a) roads; b) used by buses; c) unless otherwise indicated, not accessible to general traffic. Absolutely refusing to render even a simple line after three and a half years (despite two PRs provided) is hard to explain as anything but antagonistic gatekeeping behaviour.
- wkat4242 3y ago
  The arguments in that discussion don't really make sense either. Such lanes exist outside Latin America too. Like the "busbaan" in Almere, Netherlands. Edit: And in Diemen, as pointed out above. But generally this "process-first" attitude makes me step back as a contributor immediately. I prefer doing something the wrong way and fixing it later instead of not doing it at all. The same thing totally antagonizes me against Wikipedia editors so I never participate there either.
  - Sakos 3y ago
    These lanes also exist in Germany. Definitely agree. This type of gatekeeping is toxic and ultimately makes us all worse off.
aendruk 3y ago
My reading of the situation is that, in general, they want the community to reach consensus on a globally appropriate data model and visual language, ultimately for the purpose of serving all of humanity, fairly. Given the unique position of influence held by this renderer, ad hoc iteration on it without holistic planning risks inadvertently establishing harmful precedent that might take years to correct, or worse, to notice at all if only underrepresented users are impacted. For the specific case of busways, this holistic planning simply has yet to occur.
- matheusmoreira 3y ago
  > risks inadvertently establishing harmful precedent What sort of harmful precedents might be established?
  - aendruk 3y ago
    Modeling the world in a way that alienates or fails to serve people in specific places or cultures, creating undue technical burden on data consumers, causing pains that discourage mappers from contributing, dividing the already precariously small community, wasting volunteer time on later schema migrations
    - Freak_NL 3y ago
      > causing pains that discourage mappers from contributing Like not rendering (bus dedicated) roads despite them being tagged as (bus dedicated) roads using a tag approved by the community three and a half years ago. The openstreetmap.org website currently shows gaps all over the world wherever bus dedicated roads exist. This certainly discourages for mappers. Compare: Carto (default): https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/52.32853/5.04991&layers=N https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/52.32853/5.04991&layer... Tracestrack Topo: https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/52.32853/5.04991&layers=PN https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/52.32853/5.04991&layer...
      - aendruk 3y ago

by Vinnl 3y ago

If you're willing to entertain more leisurely mappers like me (i.e. those unaware of what happens in the community), care to steelman their reasons for the blockade?

Freak_NL 3y ago

I've read (and engaged with) everything in that issue, but I still don't understand the vague 'well the tag is just too loosely defined' argument. I mean, sure, there is some ambiguity around the exact limit of this tag, i.e., is it only meant for ways dedicated to rapid transit bus routes, or is it for ways dedicated to any bus performing a public transport role? That is a valid question (of the kind which tends to get answered in the OSM project with the passage of time and observing the actual usage of the tag), but, and at the end of the day, ways tagged with highway=busway are undeniably: a) roads; b) used by buses; c) unless otherwise indicated, not accessible to general traffic. Absolutely refusing to render even a simple line after three and a half years (despite two PRs provided) is hard to explain as anything but antagonistic gatekeeping behaviour.

wkat4242 3y ago
The arguments in that discussion don't really make sense either. Such lanes exist outside Latin America too. Like the "busbaan" in Almere, Netherlands. Edit: And in Diemen, as pointed out above. But generally this "process-first" attitude makes me step back as a contributor immediately. I prefer doing something the wrong way and fixing it later instead of not doing it at all. The same thing totally antagonizes me against Wikipedia editors so I never participate there either.
- Sakos 3y ago
  These lanes also exist in Germany. Definitely agree. This type of gatekeeping is toxic and ultimately makes us all worse off.

aendruk 3y ago

My reading of the situation is that, in general, they want the community to reach consensus on a globally appropriate data model and visual language, ultimately for the purpose of serving all of humanity, fairly. Given the unique position of influence held by this renderer, ad hoc iteration on it without holistic planning risks inadvertently establishing harmful precedent that might take years to correct, or worse, to notice at all if only underrepresented users are impacted. For the specific case of busways, this holistic planning simply has yet to occur.

matheusmoreira 3y ago
> risks inadvertently establishing harmful precedent What sort of harmful precedents might be established?
- aendruk 3y ago
  Modeling the world in a way that alienates or fails to serve people in specific places or cultures, creating undue technical burden on data consumers, causing pains that discourage mappers from contributing, dividing the already precariously small community, wasting volunteer time on later schema migrations
  - Freak_NL 3y ago
    > causing pains that discourage mappers from contributing Like not rendering (bus dedicated) roads despite them being tagged as (bus dedicated) roads using a tag approved by the community three and a half years ago. The openstreetmap.org website currently shows gaps all over the world wherever bus dedicated roads exist. This certainly discourages for mappers. Compare: Carto (default): https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/52.32853/5.04991&layers=N https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/52.32853/5.04991&layer... Tracestrack Topo: https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/52.32853/5.04991&layers=PN https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/52.32853/5.04991&layer...
    - aendruk 3y ago