11 ms·

I obviously can't guess your age, but I'm gonna wager you weren't around much prior to 9/11. The world was getting on quite well without massive surveillance cr

by geuis 3y ago

I obviously can't guess your age, but I'm gonna wager you weren't around much prior to 9/11. The world was getting on quite well without massive surveillance creep, and none of the stuff FISA has done in the last 23 years would have stopped it. The authorities already had all the info they needed back then and just didn't act on it.

borkt 3y ago
FISA has been in existence since 1978. It did not prevent 9/11, so honestly your comment undersells how worthless the program has been in light of the constitutional freedoms we willingly cede in reauthorizing it. The fact is though it remains law and the officials we elected feel the value is worth it. I hope its being done solely based on the benefits it provides us as a whole and is not being used for self-serving purposes
- tastyfreeze 3y ago
  > used for self-serving purposes That is inevitable. If there is an easier path to a goal some human will use it. It doesn't matter if the goal is against the people.
- unethical_ban 3y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Intelligence_Surveillance_Act_of_1978_Amendments_Act_of_2008 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Intelligence_Surveilla... 2008.
  - Retric 3y ago
    Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 (FISA) https://bja.ojp.gov/program/it/privacy-civil-liberties/authorities/statutes/1286 https://bja.ojp.gov/program/it/privacy-civil-liberties/autho...
    - unethical_ban 3y ago
      And the components of the program being discussed are from the 2008 amendment.
      - Retric 3y ago
        People dislike parts of the original 1978 bill that contunued. I take issue with this bit: FISA also established the United States Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court (FISC), a special U.S. Federal court that holds nonpublic sessions to consider issuing search warrants under FISA. Proceedings before the FISC are ex parte, meaning the government is the only party present. When combined by foreign agents including US citizens, it’s troubling.
- soraminazuki 3y ago
  Even humanitarian groups such as the UNICEF were targets, there's no doubt now what the program is about
- AmVess 3y ago
  These laws aren't about protecting America and its citizens, but rather as means to control them.
  - mdhb 3y ago
    People just toss comments like this around as though they were facts when in fact it’s completely paranoid made up q-anon level nonsense. These laws work a very specific way and have very specific controls in place to prevent shit like you describe from happening which you could go and read up on if you wanted to but it’s much easier to fear monger amongst one another because it plays to your ego that somebody who is important enough to be under surveillance by an intelligence agency.
    - soraminazuki 3y ago
      "Completely paranoid made up q-anon level nonsense" from the New York Times, The Guardian, Washington Post, Associated Press, and many others? I think not. https://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/13/world/middleeast/book-reveals-wider-net-of-us-spying-on-envoys.html https://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/13/world/middleeast/book-rev... https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/dec/20/gchq-targeted-aid-agencies-german-government-eu-commissioner https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/dec/20/gchq-targete... https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2013/08/24/loveint-when-nsa-officers-use-their-spying-power-on-love-interests/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2013/08/24... https://apnews.com/article/b25197d5b11740b2b29681bbc521a45f https://apnews.com/article/b25197d5b11740b2b29681bbc521a45f https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/05/fbi-misused-foreign-surveillance-law-280k-times-to-snoop-on-people-in-the-us/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/05/fbi-misused-fore...
    - xanthor 3y ago
      https://apnews.com/article/fisa-foreign-surveillance-fbi-3f7d4cc0ef413cdf20bc0b70548cde84 https://apnews.com/article/fisa-foreign-surveillance-fbi-3f7... One does not have to be “important enough” if they are conducting mass surveillance and storing it in a database indefinitely.
      - 3y ago
soraminazuki 3y ago
Agree with the sentiment, but spying capabilities have been abused before FISA, just ask Martin Luther King Jr. So I don't think things were particularly fine before 9/11 either. It's just that technological advancements have made abuse on a mass scale possible for the first time in human history. AFAICT surveillance used to be much more targeted and labor intensive. That all changed after 9/11.
- e40 3y ago
  I didn't downvote you, btw (I upvoted you). I think MLK Jr's problems with the government weren't traditional spying, they were more harassment of government employees acting on their own because they were bigots. The organized government actions that did happen, IIRC, were in places were the local government was highly corrupt and infiltrated by the KKK.
  - jiggawatts 3y ago
    “Apart from the widespread abuse of government power, there was no abuse.”
  - int_19h 3y ago
    COINTELPRO?
verdverm 3y ago
I watched 9/11 live from my dorm Maybe don't jump to biases so fast, people within all age groups have different opinions about the same topics. HN is very opinionated on surveillance, as the comments on this story reinforce
- chiefalchemist 3y ago
  What do you mean by opinionated on surveillance? When did the Constitution become an opinion?
- geuis 3y ago
  Doesn't really matter, but I was 21 when it happened. I suspect we're basically the same age.

by geuis 3y ago

borkt 3y ago

FISA has been in existence since 1978. It did not prevent 9/11, so honestly your comment undersells how worthless the program has been in light of the constitutional freedoms we willingly cede in reauthorizing it. The fact is though it remains law and the officials we elected feel the value is worth it. I hope its being done solely based on the benefits it provides us as a whole and is not being used for self-serving purposes

tastyfreeze 3y ago
> used for self-serving purposes That is inevitable. If there is an easier path to a goal some human will use it. It doesn't matter if the goal is against the people.
unethical_ban 3y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Intelligence_Surveillance_Act_of_1978_Amendments_Act_of_2008 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Intelligence_Surveilla... 2008.
- Retric 3y ago
  Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 (FISA) https://bja.ojp.gov/program/it/privacy-civil-liberties/authorities/statutes/1286 https://bja.ojp.gov/program/it/privacy-civil-liberties/autho...
  - unethical_ban 3y ago
    And the components of the program being discussed are from the 2008 amendment.
    - Retric 3y ago
      People dislike parts of the original 1978 bill that contunued. I take issue with this bit: FISA also established the United States Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court (FISC), a special U.S. Federal court that holds nonpublic sessions to consider issuing search warrants under FISA. Proceedings before the FISC are ex parte, meaning the government is the only party present. When combined by foreign agents including US citizens, it’s troubling.
soraminazuki 3y ago
Even humanitarian groups such as the UNICEF were targets, there's no doubt now what the program is about
AmVess 3y ago
These laws aren't about protecting America and its citizens, but rather as means to control them.
- mdhb 3y ago
  People just toss comments like this around as though they were facts when in fact it’s completely paranoid made up q-anon level nonsense. These laws work a very specific way and have very specific controls in place to prevent shit like you describe from happening which you could go and read up on if you wanted to but it’s much easier to fear monger amongst one another because it plays to your ego that somebody who is important enough to be under surveillance by an intelligence agency.
  - soraminazuki 3y ago
    "Completely paranoid made up q-anon level nonsense" from the New York Times, The Guardian, Washington Post, Associated Press, and many others? I think not. https://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/13/world/middleeast/book-reveals-wider-net-of-us-spying-on-envoys.html https://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/13/world/middleeast/book-rev... https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/dec/20/gchq-targeted-aid-agencies-german-government-eu-commissioner https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/dec/20/gchq-targete... https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2013/08/24/loveint-when-nsa-officers-use-their-spying-power-on-love-interests/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2013/08/24... https://apnews.com/article/b25197d5b11740b2b29681bbc521a45f https://apnews.com/article/b25197d5b11740b2b29681bbc521a45f https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/05/fbi-misused-foreign-surveillance-law-280k-times-to-snoop-on-people-in-the-us/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/05/fbi-misused-fore...
  - xanthor 3y ago
    https://apnews.com/article/fisa-foreign-surveillance-fbi-3f7d4cc0ef413cdf20bc0b70548cde84 https://apnews.com/article/fisa-foreign-surveillance-fbi-3f7... One does not have to be “important enough” if they are conducting mass surveillance and storing it in a database indefinitely.
    - 3y ago

soraminazuki 3y ago

Agree with the sentiment, but spying capabilities have been abused before FISA, just ask Martin Luther King Jr. So I don't think things were particularly fine before 9/11 either. It's just that technological advancements have made abuse on a mass scale possible for the first time in human history. AFAICT surveillance used to be much more targeted and labor intensive. That all changed after 9/11.

e40 3y ago
I didn't downvote you, btw (I upvoted you). I think MLK Jr's problems with the government weren't traditional spying, they were more harassment of government employees acting on their own because they were bigots. The organized government actions that did happen, IIRC, were in places were the local government was highly corrupt and infiltrated by the KKK.
- jiggawatts 3y ago
  “Apart from the widespread abuse of government power, there was no abuse.”
- int_19h 3y ago
  COINTELPRO?

verdverm 3y ago

I watched 9/11 live from my dorm Maybe don't jump to biases so fast, people within all age groups have different opinions about the same topics. HN is very opinionated on surveillance, as the comments on this story reinforce

chiefalchemist 3y ago
What do you mean by opinionated on surveillance? When did the Constitution become an opinion?
geuis 3y ago
Doesn't really matter, but I was 21 when it happened. I suspect we're basically the same age.