3 ms·

horseshoe theory. D+R are not so different. D in US is more right than other countries' left leaning parties

dexwiz 2y ago
Both sides are mostly rich or put there by the rich. A few populist reps get outsized airtime, but that isn’t the majority of people running the show.
- ryandrake 2y ago
  There are a lot more similarities between "both sides" than that. They make a big show out of arguing over a small number of things they disagree on. But for many important things, they don't significantly differ. The two parties do not significantly differ on indefinite detention of American citizens on US soil. The two parties do not significantly differ on domestic spying, dragnet-style data collection and warrantless wiretapping. The two parties do not significantly differ on allowing extra-judicial targeted killings. The two parties do not significantly differ on the use of unmanned drones, either for combat or domestic surveillance. The two parties both support pre-emptive "cyber" war and non-defensive hacking. The two parties do not significantly differ on their support for continuing the War On Terror. The two parties both support maintaining US military bases around the world. The two parties do not significantly differ on favoring Keynesian economics. The two parties support delegating monetary policy decisions to the Federal Reserve, including support for quantitative easing. The two parties do not significantly differ on their use of earmarks and pork barrel spending. Neither of the two parties have (recently) proposed plans for balancing the budget. Neither of the two parties plans to significantly cut defense spending. The two parties both favor taxpayer-funded foreign aid. The two parties are largely backed by the same corporate sponsors and special interest groups, with a few key differences. The two parties both backed TARP and in general favor bailing out companies too big to fail. The two parties do not significantly differ on their general support of "economic stimulus" as a tool to prop up the economy. The two parties do not significantly differ on their support for and allegiance to Israel. The two parties both favor and continue sanctions on Iran. The two parties do not significantly differ on their use of super PAC funding and their support of unlimited spending from corporations and special interest groups. The two parties do not significantly differ on their use of gerrymandering to gain political advantage. The two parties oppose any measures that would strengthen the viability of a third party.
  - golergka 2y ago
    Many of these points are just common sense. Does America really need a major party that's insane on one of the important issues?
    - int_19h 2y ago
      I guarantee you that whichever points you think are "common sense" on this list, there's millions of people in this country who will disagree with you on every single one of them.
      - golergka 2y ago
        There are also millions of people who think that Earth's flat.
        int_19h 2y ago
        So then be more specific: whose "common sense" do you have in mind?
        golergka 2y ago
        People who are professionals in international relations, monetary policy, administering a country and other areas that these statements relate to.
        int_19h 2y ago
        Given the present state of international relations, monetary policy, or the country in general, I'm no longer sure such people even exist. There are certainly many people who would like the proles to think so, and to vote them into power on that basis. But it doesn't appear to be translating to policies that are actually good for most of us, somehow.
  - Jerrrry 2y ago
    emergent behavior from a self-interested system, which doesn't necessarily preclude collusion, directly or less so. the best capitalist simply had their competition shot.
avianlyric 2y ago
Minor correction > D in US is more right than other countries' left leaning parties D in US is more right than other countries' right leaning parties
SSJPython 2y ago
> D in US is more right than other countries' left leaning parties I don't think this is accurate. Maybe on healthcare and welfare, sure. But on many social issues, the Democrats are much further to the left than the European left. On issues such as abortion, gender/sexuality, migration, and race, the Democrats are more extreme compared to Labour in the UK, SPD in Germany, and the PSOE in Spain. Even the left in France isn't as socially extremist as the Democrats.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- Larrikin 2y ago
  It's a boring take from more than 30 years ago that was kinda true in the Regan years when the dominant voting groups could pretend that elected officials and government didn't actually matter because they all voted similarly and discrimination against groups that disagreed had been publicly accepted for decades. Historical electoral maps were not usually competitive at all like they are now. The both parties are the same is such a lazy take, except in super limited circumstances like this naked power grab in the article. Both are going to use it in wildly different ways
- mamonster 2y ago
  >Even the left in France isn't as socially extremist as the Democrats. Depends which left which you are talking about. LFI is certainly on that level in their way, PS/Place Publique are not(given that "printemps républicain" was part of what killed popular support for the party).
- monocasa 2y ago
  I mean, those countries have other further left parties with held seats in their legislatures up to and including outright explicit communist parties. Those parties you listed are known for being center to center left in Europe, sometimes explicitly escuing the left as UK Labour and SPD have done. Excpet PSOE which is farther left than the Democrats, having all of the identity politics of the Democratic party while being explicitly and empathetically pro union. Heads would have rolled if PSOE had broken the rail workers strike that like Biden did. The also tried to legalize abortion in the Spanish constitution in the 1970s, and haven't wavered on their view of abortion since. They passed same sex marriage when they got their first chance to (and before the US did), and used the same opportunity to expand transgender rights.
dukeyukey 2y ago
Left and right are different in different countries. In the US, the Republicans are generally pro-building (see where new homes and factories are being built). But in the UK, the left party (Labour) is the one pushing for less onerous planning.

Both sides are mostly rich or put there by the rich. A few populist reps get outsized airtime, but that isn’t the majority of people running the show.

ryandrake 2y ago
There are a lot more similarities between "both sides" than that. They make a big show out of arguing over a small number of things they disagree on. But for many important things, they don't significantly differ. The two parties do not significantly differ on indefinite detention of American citizens on US soil. The two parties do not significantly differ on domestic spying, dragnet-style data collection and warrantless wiretapping. The two parties do not significantly differ on allowing extra-judicial targeted killings. The two parties do not significantly differ on the use of unmanned drones, either for combat or domestic surveillance. The two parties both support pre-emptive "cyber" war and non-defensive hacking. The two parties do not significantly differ on their support for continuing the War On Terror. The two parties both support maintaining US military bases around the world. The two parties do not significantly differ on favoring Keynesian economics. The two parties support delegating monetary policy decisions to the Federal Reserve, including support for quantitative easing. The two parties do not significantly differ on their use of earmarks and pork barrel spending. Neither of the two parties have (recently) proposed plans for balancing the budget. Neither of the two parties plans to significantly cut defense spending. The two parties both favor taxpayer-funded foreign aid. The two parties are largely backed by the same corporate sponsors and special interest groups, with a few key differences. The two parties both backed TARP and in general favor bailing out companies too big to fail. The two parties do not significantly differ on their general support of "economic stimulus" as a tool to prop up the economy. The two parties do not significantly differ on their support for and allegiance to Israel. The two parties both favor and continue sanctions on Iran. The two parties do not significantly differ on their use of super PAC funding and their support of unlimited spending from corporations and special interest groups. The two parties do not significantly differ on their use of gerrymandering to gain political advantage. The two parties oppose any measures that would strengthen the viability of a third party.
- golergka 2y ago
  Many of these points are just common sense. Does America really need a major party that's insane on one of the important issues?
  - int_19h 2y ago
    I guarantee you that whichever points you think are "common sense" on this list, there's millions of people in this country who will disagree with you on every single one of them.
    - golergka 2y ago
      There are also millions of people who think that Earth's flat.
      - int_19h 2y ago
        So then be more specific: whose "common sense" do you have in mind?
        golergka 2y ago
        People who are professionals in international relations, monetary policy, administering a country and other areas that these statements relate to.
        int_19h 2y ago
        Given the present state of international relations, monetary policy, or the country in general, I'm no longer sure such people even exist. There are certainly many people who would like the proles to think so, and to vote them into power on that basis. But it doesn't appear to be translating to policies that are actually good for most of us, somehow.
- Jerrrry 2y ago
  emergent behavior from a self-interested system, which doesn't necessarily preclude collusion, directly or less so. the best capitalist simply had their competition shot.

avianlyric 2y ago

Minor correction > D in US is more right than other countries' left leaning parties D in US is more right than other countries' right leaning parties

SSJPython 2y ago

> D in US is more right than other countries' left leaning parties I don't think this is accurate. Maybe on healthcare and welfare, sure. But on many social issues, the Democrats are much further to the left than the European left. On issues such as abortion, gender/sexuality, migration, and race, the Democrats are more extreme compared to Labour in the UK, SPD in Germany, and the PSOE in Spain. Even the left in France isn't as socially extremist as the Democrats.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
Larrikin 2y ago
It's a boring take from more than 30 years ago that was kinda true in the Regan years when the dominant voting groups could pretend that elected officials and government didn't actually matter because they all voted similarly and discrimination against groups that disagreed had been publicly accepted for decades. Historical electoral maps were not usually competitive at all like they are now. The both parties are the same is such a lazy take, except in super limited circumstances like this naked power grab in the article. Both are going to use it in wildly different ways
mamonster 2y ago
>Even the left in France isn't as socially extremist as the Democrats. Depends which left which you are talking about. LFI is certainly on that level in their way, PS/Place Publique are not(given that "printemps républicain" was part of what killed popular support for the party).
monocasa 2y ago
I mean, those countries have other further left parties with held seats in their legislatures up to and including outright explicit communist parties. Those parties you listed are known for being center to center left in Europe, sometimes explicitly escuing the left as UK Labour and SPD have done. Excpet PSOE which is farther left than the Democrats, having all of the identity politics of the Democratic party while being explicitly and empathetically pro union. Heads would have rolled if PSOE had broken the rail workers strike that like Biden did. The also tried to legalize abortion in the Spanish constitution in the 1970s, and haven't wavered on their view of abortion since. They passed same sex marriage when they got their first chance to (and before the US did), and used the same opportunity to expand transgender rights.

dukeyukey 2y ago

Left and right are different in different countries. In the US, the Republicans are generally pro-building (see where new homes and factories are being built). But in the UK, the left party (Labour) is the one pushing for less onerous planning.