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Tbh, I don't understand the fixation on async/await in any language, and the last place where I would want to have that baked in is the stdlib (instead even wit

Tbh, I don't understand the fixation on async/await in any language, and the last place where I would want to have that baked in is the stdlib (instead even with async/await available the lowest 'async stdlib layer' should use simple completion callbacks, which can then be wrapped in a higher level async/await compatible API if desired - although the original Zig async/await actually had a solution for the function color problem, which made such an 'async-agnostic' layering less important). Async/await is a nice-to-have syntax sugar, but not required to write asynchronous code, and considering the substantial under-the-hood complexity I'm not sure if async/await is a good thing overall, especially in a low level systems programming language like Zig (or FWIW, also Rust and C++). Arguably, promises are an important concept in JS because it's a convenient and composable method to let code complete "in the background" without proper multithreading, but promises work just fine without the async/await code transformation magic (which even in JS is just the cherry on the top, but not a must-have feature). > sanitary minimal API for a stack object + state machine + set/longjmp builtin primitives Traditional async/await doesn't use most of that but instead relies on the compiler to transform sequential 'async code' into a switch-case state machine. What you want sounds more like green threads / fibers with stack switching. This isn't portable to some platforms where the call stack isn't accessible (like WASM). But as I wrote above, I think that lowest layer should simply be 'stdlib functions with completion callbacks'. Those low level functions can then be wrapped into all sorts of asynchronous/multithreading runtimes. FWIW, I think a stack-switching fiber runtime should be possible in Zig without special language primitives, because Zig has inline assembly: https://ziglang.org/documentation/master/#Assembly https://ziglang.org/documentation/master/#Assembly

binary132 3y ago
Do you think it’s good or bad for Rust that they got builtin async semantics this late in their lifecycle, after multiple people have already contributed competing and incompatible asynchrony APIs? Have you paid any attention to the state of industrial asynchronous programming in C++? I can see arguing to omit it entirely from a language, and to never introduce it, but clearly the Zig authors intend to include it.
- flohofwoe 3y ago
  I'm not closely following the state of async/await in Rust and C++, but from my outside perspective it looks like it resulted in a hot mess in both cases. Zig's initial async/await solution looked like it would avoid a lot of that mess, but IMHO it's better to not have a feature at all instead of a half-assed feature. So I actually appreciate Zig to focus on other things first if they don't currently have a good plan on how to provide a good async/await implementation that fits the "Zig vision". Personally, it's definitely not anywhere close to the top of my "must have" list for a low level language like Zig.
  - binary132 3y ago
    In Rust, C, and C++, people have come up with their own solutions to it, which are incompatible with one another, hard to debug, and have caused ecosystem fragmentation. The reality is that evented IO is a system feature that needs to be supported in the standard library first and foremost, if not in the compiler, to avoid competing “async std” implementations, and then a blessed API should be provided to support it so that the ecosystem doesn’t diverge. Go knocked it out of the park on this.
    - latch 3y ago
      Yes. I think I don't understand something, because without a cohesive concurrency story, it isn't clear how you're supposed to glue different components together effectively. For example, an http server is using nonblocking calls and dispatches to its own threadpool. The lack of cohesiveness means that the blocking call made by the PostgreSQL library can't feedback into the http server's concurrency model. The http server could expose or pass some control mechanism into the application, but for that to work, all the libraries would need to support it. A lot of people don't seem to think this is necessary, and I've generally assumed that they're right and there's stuff I just don't understand.
      - binary132 3y ago
        It's kinda true if you're just using the system primitives directly (kqueue, epoll, whatever) but people tend to build abstractions over those and then offer callback scheduling libraries for their users, and away we go. IMO, we haven't really seen a natively compiled and manually memory-managed language "get it right" yet. There are pretty good third-party abstractions for it though.

binary132 3y ago

Do you think it’s good or bad for Rust that they got builtin async semantics this late in their lifecycle, after multiple people have already contributed competing and incompatible asynchrony APIs? Have you paid any attention to the state of industrial asynchronous programming in C++? I can see arguing to omit it entirely from a language, and to never introduce it, but clearly the Zig authors intend to include it.

flohofwoe 3y ago
I'm not closely following the state of async/await in Rust and C++, but from my outside perspective it looks like it resulted in a hot mess in both cases. Zig's initial async/await solution looked like it would avoid a lot of that mess, but IMHO it's better to not have a feature at all instead of a half-assed feature. So I actually appreciate Zig to focus on other things first if they don't currently have a good plan on how to provide a good async/await implementation that fits the "Zig vision". Personally, it's definitely not anywhere close to the top of my "must have" list for a low level language like Zig.
- binary132 3y ago
  In Rust, C, and C++, people have come up with their own solutions to it, which are incompatible with one another, hard to debug, and have caused ecosystem fragmentation. The reality is that evented IO is a system feature that needs to be supported in the standard library first and foremost, if not in the compiler, to avoid competing “async std” implementations, and then a blessed API should be provided to support it so that the ecosystem doesn’t diverge. Go knocked it out of the park on this.
  - latch 3y ago
    Yes. I think I don't understand something, because without a cohesive concurrency story, it isn't clear how you're supposed to glue different components together effectively. For example, an http server is using nonblocking calls and dispatches to its own threadpool. The lack of cohesiveness means that the blocking call made by the PostgreSQL library can't feedback into the http server's concurrency model. The http server could expose or pass some control mechanism into the application, but for that to work, all the libraries would need to support it. A lot of people don't seem to think this is necessary, and I've generally assumed that they're right and there's stuff I just don't understand.
    - binary132 3y ago
      It's kinda true if you're just using the system primitives directly (kqueue, epoll, whatever) but people tend to build abstractions over those and then offer callback scheduling libraries for their users, and away we go. IMO, we haven't really seen a natively compiled and manually memory-managed language "get it right" yet. There are pretty good third-party abstractions for it though.