3 ms·

Here in the UK the minimum wage act was introduced in 1998. It was sold to the public as a way to stop employers abusing employees by under paying them and to

by reify 3y ago

Here in the UK the minimum wage act was introduced in 1998. It was sold to the public as a way to stop employers abusing employees by under paying them and to prevent slave wages. Constantly stating the so called "sweat shops" (the clothing manufacturing factories) in the north of England employing foreign and illegal workers and paying them a poultry £2 per hour. What really happened was this: Early on it was quite clear that the act was developed for the benefit of employers to reduce their overall wage budget and not to help employees by paying them more. Large companies started to get rid of staff who were being paid a decent liveable wage only to re-employ new staff on the minimum wage. Early retirement was another way to get swathes of people out and employ more and more people on mimimum wages. Right across the board from building site workers to Airline staff. No job was safe. Minimum wage! We as a company will pay you the minimum wage which is preset through our intensive lobbying of government to continue with our vast profits for shareholders. In the Oxford dictionary the word "Employ" means "to use".

MrDresden 3y ago
There is nothing wrong with minimum wage regulations, but they aren't enough on their own. What is also needed are strong unions that fight on behalf of the workers to make sure wages are higher than the minimum (plus everything else that unions do for workers).
- graemep 3y ago
  That only helps those with strong unions. Those with strong unions are often hugely overpaid (train drivers in the UK for example - one reason are trains are expensive). THose in a weaker position with regard to striking (easily replaced, no short term loss or employers who are better off absorbing it, large numbers of small employers rather than one or two big ones...) cannot benefit as much. Laws that treat everyone equally are far better. The best solution would be UBI.
  - youngtaff 3y ago
    Who says train drivers are overpaid? Their median salary is £59,000 and considering their responsibilities that seems fine to me Anyone who complains train drivers are overpaid is always free to retrain as one
    - graemep 3y ago
      That is comparable to the lower range of aircraft pilots salaries, which require far more skill and training and far greater responsibility: https://www.prospects.ac.uk/job-profiles/airline-pilot https://www.prospects.ac.uk/job-profiles/airline-pilot it is higher than train drivers are paid in other European countries: https://www.dw.com/en/german-train-drivers-earn-less-than-youd-think/a-18467783 https://www.dw.com/en/german-train-drivers-earn-less-than-yo... It is far more than than a nurse earns. > Anyone who complains train drivers are overpaid is always free to retrain as one And anyone who complains CEOs are over paid is free to become one too, in theory. I do not want to retrain as a train driver, but many people in occupations that are more skilled (such as nursing) would make more money if they did so.
      - MrDresden 3y ago
        It sounds to me that the issue isn't that train drivers are being compensated too much, but rather that nurses and pilots (among many others) are not being compensated enough. They should take a page out of the playbook that the train drivers have been using.
      - youngtaff 3y ago
        > And anyone who complains CEOs are over paid is free to become one too, in theory I think you know that’s a specious argument because in reality it’s far easier to become a train driver than a CEO Yes, UK train drivers might be better paid than most of their European counterparts but we still don’t have enough of them and their representatives have negotiated well Nurses being underpaid doesn’t make train drivers overpaid that’s just Tory politicians talking points
dgrin91 3y ago
This makes no sense? If employers could replace high paid workers with minimum wage on-mass after minimum wage law then why didn't they just replace them with even cheaper workers before minimum wage law?
youngtaff 3y ago
Nice theory but where is your evidence? The reality is that the minimum wage has hugely boosted incomes for the least well off - https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/mar/27/minimum-wage-is-uks-most-successful-economic-policy-in-a-generation https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/mar/27/minimum-wage... And the real issue is that wages have stagnated since the 2008 financial crisis with many people receiving below inflation pay rises e.g. medical staff being 35% worse off in real terms - https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/mar/20/uuk-workers-wage-stagnation-resolution-foundation-thinktank https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/mar/20/uuk-workers... Some companies pay more that the minimum wage as they’re competing for staff e.g. supermarkets, and the more people are paid the lower in work benefits will cost
impossiblefork 3y ago
I personally prefer the Swedish system of wages set by union negotiations instead of having a state minimum wage. There should obviously be special wages for particularly strenuous work, that leaves people exhausted and for certain professions that have special characteristics, and that's not for the government to decide, rather it must be set by collective agreements between large groups of workers and employers. Politics and laws are too slow, and this provides an intermediate flexibility level in-between politics and direct negotiation. It's at odds with some EU law though, which is a huge problem. It's designed to work in a closed system, so when people can bring in strikebreakers from abroad there's a major problem which will eventually have be solved at the EU level, or we'll eventually be unable to remain (since this is more core to our politics than our EU membership).
kaimac 3y ago
nah

by reify 3y ago

MrDresden 3y ago

There is nothing wrong with minimum wage regulations, but they aren't enough on their own. What is also needed are strong unions that fight on behalf of the workers to make sure wages are higher than the minimum (plus everything else that unions do for workers).

graemep 3y ago
That only helps those with strong unions. Those with strong unions are often hugely overpaid (train drivers in the UK for example - one reason are trains are expensive). THose in a weaker position with regard to striking (easily replaced, no short term loss or employers who are better off absorbing it, large numbers of small employers rather than one or two big ones...) cannot benefit as much. Laws that treat everyone equally are far better. The best solution would be UBI.
- youngtaff 3y ago
  Who says train drivers are overpaid? Their median salary is £59,000 and considering their responsibilities that seems fine to me Anyone who complains train drivers are overpaid is always free to retrain as one
  - graemep 3y ago
    That is comparable to the lower range of aircraft pilots salaries, which require far more skill and training and far greater responsibility: https://www.prospects.ac.uk/job-profiles/airline-pilot https://www.prospects.ac.uk/job-profiles/airline-pilot it is higher than train drivers are paid in other European countries: https://www.dw.com/en/german-train-drivers-earn-less-than-youd-think/a-18467783 https://www.dw.com/en/german-train-drivers-earn-less-than-yo... It is far more than than a nurse earns. > Anyone who complains train drivers are overpaid is always free to retrain as one And anyone who complains CEOs are over paid is free to become one too, in theory. I do not want to retrain as a train driver, but many people in occupations that are more skilled (such as nursing) would make more money if they did so.
    - MrDresden 3y ago
      It sounds to me that the issue isn't that train drivers are being compensated too much, but rather that nurses and pilots (among many others) are not being compensated enough. They should take a page out of the playbook that the train drivers have been using.
    - youngtaff 3y ago
      > And anyone who complains CEOs are over paid is free to become one too, in theory I think you know that’s a specious argument because in reality it’s far easier to become a train driver than a CEO Yes, UK train drivers might be better paid than most of their European counterparts but we still don’t have enough of them and their representatives have negotiated well Nurses being underpaid doesn’t make train drivers overpaid that’s just Tory politicians talking points

dgrin91 3y ago

This makes no sense? If employers could replace high paid workers with minimum wage on-mass after minimum wage law then why didn't they just replace them with even cheaper workers before minimum wage law?

youngtaff 3y ago

Nice theory but where is your evidence? The reality is that the minimum wage has hugely boosted incomes for the least well off - https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/mar/27/minimum-wage-is-uks-most-successful-economic-policy-in-a-generation https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/mar/27/minimum-wage... And the real issue is that wages have stagnated since the 2008 financial crisis with many people receiving below inflation pay rises e.g. medical staff being 35% worse off in real terms - https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/mar/20/uuk-workers-wage-stagnation-resolution-foundation-thinktank https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/mar/20/uuk-workers... Some companies pay more that the minimum wage as they’re competing for staff e.g. supermarkets, and the more people are paid the lower in work benefits will cost

impossiblefork 3y ago

I personally prefer the Swedish system of wages set by union negotiations instead of having a state minimum wage. There should obviously be special wages for particularly strenuous work, that leaves people exhausted and for certain professions that have special characteristics, and that's not for the government to decide, rather it must be set by collective agreements between large groups of workers and employers. Politics and laws are too slow, and this provides an intermediate flexibility level in-between politics and direct negotiation. It's at odds with some EU law though, which is a huge problem. It's designed to work in a closed system, so when people can bring in strikebreakers from abroad there's a major problem which will eventually have be solved at the EU level, or we'll eventually be unable to remain (since this is more core to our politics than our EU membership).

kaimac 3y ago

nah