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If a much more intelligent species comes to earth and says, we'll kill you all now , or we'll farm you for organs, at age 70; However, we'll help your species h

If a much more intelligent species comes to earth and says, we'll kill you all now , or we'll farm you for organs, at age 70; However, we'll help your species have a fairly good life and chance of survival overall ? I'd take it. Even if my kids were impacted. Then imagine if they said: "it's likely that due to advancements in science, in 50 years we won't need to do this anymore because we'll have lab grown organs so we'll just leave you guys alone when we have what we need". I would double take that deal. This is likely where we are now. The major difference with all of this discussion though is that obviously, animals are conscious, I don't believe they're capable of reasoning where they would be disturbed or troubled by such a deal. We're capable of understanding that our kids will be slaughtered for organs in 70 years from their birth. We also have strong emotions tied to this. So we'd be upset about it so I think that makes it a worse deal. Not the worst possible deal in such a theoretical circumstance, but it would be better than annihilation. Definitely not saying this means this is ideal for anyone, animals or humans, nothing is perfect, I just don't think it's catastrophic.

anonzzzies 3y ago
From some intelligent specifies like squids we don’t know: maybe they are disturbed by it and fear and hate humanity and plan their lives to be far away from them. They do plan and they remember things over generations. Not believing they can reason or proving they cannot reason are different things.
- bamboozled 3y ago
  I was fishing once, and I saw squid maul the face off a small yellow tail fish, I think the thing was still alive, it was a hideous way to go either way. It was one of the first times I realized how cruel the world can be. I used my sharp knife and made sure the little thing out of it's misery. But yeah, imagine that, being hugged by a squid and having your face chewed off by it's beak ? When I take the same fish, I use a fish spike, it's instant. Anyway, if Squid are conscious and have such high levels of thought as you describe, then they understand the game and are likely undisturbed by it. If squid went vegan, then I'd feel worse. This is why I think hunting is a much more fair way of obtaining protein. We're playing a much fairer game, factory farming and raping the ocean with super trawlers isn't.
  - anonzzzies 3y ago
    But if we have to hunt our food then all those ‘ma meat must have ma meat’ dudes living in shitty small overcrowded city apartments wouldn’t be able to get their meat and they would get very angry. Probably to the point of them starting to eat other humans as those are perfectly hunt-able in big cities.
  - BriggyDwiggs42 3y ago
    Squids don’t have the option and we, admittedly, do. Nature is intrinsically and deeply cruel, but we could choose not to contribute. I think that if we do contribute, we should admit we do it for the pleasure of eating nice tasty meat and just call it worth it. I do agree with the whole hunting is better thing, but I don’t think there’s any objective reason, just vibes. I also think that, if we can grow like lab meat in the future, we should switch to that. It’s not gonna be viable for a long time tho.
    - bamboozled 3y ago
      Some people do: 1. If you have the time to cook the required amount of vegetarian food (not easy from experience). 2. If you can digest legume based protein without issue. 3. If you want to participate in social or culture events where eating meat is part of having a social life. Are you a full time vegan / vegetarian? I did it for 2 years, I actually would call it a "luxury". I moved to a country where it's not yet "hip to be vegetarian" and it's virtually impossible to survive in that place. There is no "Whole Foods" in many parts of the world.
000ooo000 3y ago
>If a much more intelligent species comes to earth and says, we'll kill you all now , or we'll farm you for organs, at age 70; However, we'll help your species have a fairly good life and chance of survival overall ? This line of reasoning begins with a false dichotomy. >I don't believe they're capable of reasoning where they would be disturbed or troubled by such a deal There are humans with significantly reduced cognition that one could also argue would not be troubled by such a deal; suddenly the rationale seems a little flimsy when we consider taking mentally disabled people and 'harvesting' them simply because they don't understand it's a raw deal for them. I wish I could articulate it generally (newborn, low on sleep atm) but there's something here about mixing levels of consciousness when determining morality that seems flawed.
- bamboozled 3y ago
  or there isn't and you're just looking for things to argue about? There are humans with significantly reduced cognition that one could also argue would not be troubled by such a deal; Families would care
pcthrowaway 3y ago
What we have in animal agriculture is more like if the organs were farmed at age 20, and humans bred at puberty to produce more babies to feed the organ farm. Not sure why you chose age 70 in your example.

anonzzzies 3y ago

From some intelligent specifies like squids we don’t know: maybe they are disturbed by it and fear and hate humanity and plan their lives to be far away from them. They do plan and they remember things over generations. Not believing they can reason or proving they cannot reason are different things.

bamboozled 3y ago
I was fishing once, and I saw squid maul the face off a small yellow tail fish, I think the thing was still alive, it was a hideous way to go either way. It was one of the first times I realized how cruel the world can be. I used my sharp knife and made sure the little thing out of it's misery. But yeah, imagine that, being hugged by a squid and having your face chewed off by it's beak ? When I take the same fish, I use a fish spike, it's instant. Anyway, if Squid are conscious and have such high levels of thought as you describe, then they understand the game and are likely undisturbed by it. If squid went vegan, then I'd feel worse. This is why I think hunting is a much more fair way of obtaining protein. We're playing a much fairer game, factory farming and raping the ocean with super trawlers isn't.
- anonzzzies 3y ago
  But if we have to hunt our food then all those ‘ma meat must have ma meat’ dudes living in shitty small overcrowded city apartments wouldn’t be able to get their meat and they would get very angry. Probably to the point of them starting to eat other humans as those are perfectly hunt-able in big cities.
- BriggyDwiggs42 3y ago
  Squids don’t have the option and we, admittedly, do. Nature is intrinsically and deeply cruel, but we could choose not to contribute. I think that if we do contribute, we should admit we do it for the pleasure of eating nice tasty meat and just call it worth it. I do agree with the whole hunting is better thing, but I don’t think there’s any objective reason, just vibes. I also think that, if we can grow like lab meat in the future, we should switch to that. It’s not gonna be viable for a long time tho.
  - bamboozled 3y ago
    Some people do: 1. If you have the time to cook the required amount of vegetarian food (not easy from experience). 2. If you can digest legume based protein without issue. 3. If you want to participate in social or culture events where eating meat is part of having a social life. Are you a full time vegan / vegetarian? I did it for 2 years, I actually would call it a "luxury". I moved to a country where it's not yet "hip to be vegetarian" and it's virtually impossible to survive in that place. There is no "Whole Foods" in many parts of the world.

000ooo000 3y ago

>If a much more intelligent species comes to earth and says, we'll kill you all now , or we'll farm you for organs, at age 70; However, we'll help your species have a fairly good life and chance of survival overall ? This line of reasoning begins with a false dichotomy. >I don't believe they're capable of reasoning where they would be disturbed or troubled by such a deal There are humans with significantly reduced cognition that one could also argue would not be troubled by such a deal; suddenly the rationale seems a little flimsy when we consider taking mentally disabled people and 'harvesting' them simply because they don't understand it's a raw deal for them. I wish I could articulate it generally (newborn, low on sleep atm) but there's something here about mixing levels of consciousness when determining morality that seems flawed.

bamboozled 3y ago
or there isn't and you're just looking for things to argue about? There are humans with significantly reduced cognition that one could also argue would not be troubled by such a deal; Families would care

pcthrowaway 3y ago

What we have in animal agriculture is more like if the organs were farmed at age 20, and humans bred at puberty to produce more babies to feed the organ farm. Not sure why you chose age 70 in your example.