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>it's very useful for the Russians to withdraw money in Turkey as well. "This product makes it easy to illegally bypass international sanctions" is not the com

>it's very useful for the Russians to withdraw money in Turkey as well. "This product makes it easy to illegally bypass international sanctions" is not the compliment you think it is.

trappist 3y ago
Do you think that the world is a better place if ordinary Russians can't access their own money?
- nerdwaller 3y ago
  Just wait until their home banks interrogate them about how they want to spend their local currency they wish to withdraw or banks shut off withdrawals entirely due to systemic issues. Bitcoin may not be the end all solution, but it's a great current option.
- nullityrofl 3y ago
  This is the entire premise of sanctions, yes.
  - grishka 3y ago
    To punish people for someone else's decision?
    - scrollaway 3y ago
      I wish to remind you that many everyday Russians participate in the war in a variety of ways, from diffusing propaganda, to a variety of associations with the Russian military complex, to being on the frontlines themselves. Those many everyday Russians punish people (Ukrainians mainly, Europeans in general) for someone else’s decision (Putin’s power trip). I also wish to remind you that hardship in Russia does not compare to hardship in Ukraine right now. I say this as someone with relatives in both countries today.
    - pokepim 3y ago
      [dead]
    - mopsi 3y ago
      Someone else's decision, and you are just following the orders? It doesn't work that way. Putin is not working in a factory building tanks and artillery shells. He is not in an office programming which cities ballistic missiles will hit. He is not piloting bombers or manning guns shooting at Ukraine. He is not sitting in tanks ravaging through Ukrainian countriside, he is not in cellars raping and torturing civilians, he has not personally committed any of the tens of thousands documented war crimes in Ukraine. Millions upon millions of "ordinary Russians" choose to do this every day. Without the majority of Russian society actively working to carry out Putin's ideas, or passively sitting on their asses and trying to pretend they have nothing to do with it, Putin would be just a raving madman without any influence on the world like Hitler in his final days. USSR collapsed when "ordinary Russians" simply stopped following orders. They were told to go there and do this, and they said NO in large enough numbers that the leaders were simply unable to do anything, because eventually even police and military stopped listening them. Russia has not yet reached this breaking point, and millions upon millions remain Putin's willing executioners, and bear the guilt that comes with it. Every day, Ukrainians put their lives on the line, and hundreds die, in a desperate attempt to stop the curse on the world that Russia has become, while "ordinary Russians" are unwilling to even stage a large protest.
      - grishka 3y ago
        There's an enormous separation between those "ordinary Russians" who are in survival mode and do all the things you said, and those other "ordinary Russians" like me who are actually affected by sanctions and have passports and care about traveling abroad and speak English and are against the war. The sanctions target the wrong ones. As for "unwilling to even stage a large protest", there's simply no one left to organize it. Those people who could do it are either in jail, in exile, or dead.
- startupsfail 3y ago
  The same ordinary Russians that voted for the person that was clearly a dictator on the raise? Or the same ones that are cheerfully sending their children to kill innocent people in Ukraine? Or the same ones that were completely apathetic to the political opposition being arrested, poisoned or killed? I’d say yes. That’s the point of the sanctions. And somebody should be tracing that Russian money on the ledger and getting the ill gotten properties traced and arrested.
  - janalsncm 3y ago
    I don’t think many people would agree that Russia has free and fair elections. Russia declares political opponents to be terrorists, effectively narrowing the Overton Window to be perfectly Putin sized. Of course Russians don’t deserve economic hardship, but they don’t deserve to live in an autocracy either. And Ukrainians don’t deserve to be invaded. The lesson here is probably that the “great man” theory of history kind of ignores the everyday people whose lives were ruined by leaders who didn’t have to deal with the worst consequences of their decisions.
    - startupsfail 3y ago
      It’s the people that empower and enable. They are given guns, tanks, military aircrafts, missiles. They are manufacturing the weapons. It doesn’t look like any of these get accidentally launched onto Kremlin. Or turned against conscription. Or used in any kind of resistance. There are people there that are sacrificing their lives. Only for some reason, they are sacrificing these lives on the wrong side. On the side of supporting the dictatorship.
- janalsncm 3y ago
  The point of sanctions is as a disincentive against bad behavior at a national level. The bad behavior here is invading a sovereign country. If the sanctions worked it would cause internal pressure and shorten the war. Of course no one wants hardship for everyday Russians, but we should be able to say the same about everyday Ukrainians, many of whom have had their whole lives upended. The war is continuing because of only one man on the planet, and since violent options are off the table, functioning sanctions are the next best thing.
  - Dalewyn 3y ago
    >The point of sanctions is as a disincentive against bad behavior at a national level. There is an argument to be made that sanctions don't work. Maybe they used to in the long distant past, but they don't now. Russia doesn't give even half a fuck, Iran gives negative fucks, North Korea gives no fucks, and China is turning the sanctions back against us, to name some prominent examples. I appreciate the west's desire to settle diplomatic problems using something other than war, but sanctions aren't the solution (anymore?).
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - aardvarkr 3y ago
      You claimed this based on vibes without citing any sources. Do you really think North Korea is thriving right now? How about Iran’s booming economy? The mighty Russian bear is so crippled by sanctions that China effectively owns them, with Russia entirely dependent on them to for everything besides oil. Every day that these sanctions against Iran, North Korea, and Russia are in place those countries fall further and further behind. Every day their economies become less and less competitive
      - Dalewyn 3y ago
        You say that, but Iran keeps on war merchanting, North Korea keeps on lobbing missiles, Russia keeps on warmongering, and China keeps on owning the world. Sanctions as they are right now don't work, and that is a problem.
- wizardforhire 3y ago
  Do you think the world is a better place if ordinary Russians are nuked along with ordinary people all over the world? Why beat around the bush? The reason we’re playing the sanctions game, or the proxy war game, or any other bullshit games nations are playing is because the alternative is worse.
grishka 3y ago
Those sanctions that do nothing for their alleged purpose (to make the war economically harder for the Russian government) yet disproportionately affect those people who can do absolutely nothing about them, right. I say that a very disgruntled Russian who hasn't had a sane, predictable life since 2020.
- cdchn 3y ago
  >who can do absolutely nothing about them There is a _bit_ of hope you'll do something about it.
  - grishka 3y ago
    You seem really naive to think that this government has any feedback mechanisms whatsoever left.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - brokenmachine 3y ago
      Of course there's feedback mechanisms. You just don't want to use them for whatever reason.
      - infamouscow 3y ago
        What's funny is in the US, when even the slightest hint of that occurred, one side completely freaked out. Just imagine if those folks were armed, or say even 10% of the population were heavily armed and in support of that. It also probably doesn't help that the overwhelming majority of experienced combat veterans the US spent millions per troop training for the last 20 years would be on their side, not yours. That layers on top of their real world experience of bullets wizzing and cracking by, living in shit conditions, and holding their friends in their arms as they die. You're a feeble Internet nerd whose position is an aberration of history. I'm sure you'll selectively apply your morals rather than having enough intelligence to understand what you're advocating. This is pretty reprehensible and you should be embarrassed.
kaliqt 3y ago
Russian citizens aren't criminals. The sanctions are wrong.
- aforwardslash 3y ago
  Like it or not, in a democracy, all citizens bear responsability for the actions of their state. I'm not saying people are individually accountable for every little detail, but they are for the collective of their misdeeds. Either it is a democracy and the majority of the population is on board with it - explicitly or by ineptitude - or it is a dictatorship and they are cumplicit by inaction. If we were discussing nazi party sympathizers in 1940 you wouldn't be even giving them the benefit of the doubt; the truth is, many people got onboard with what was going on because it wasn't with them directly. They got on with the party because it was what every one was doing at the time. Turning a blind eye to the atrocities performed by the leaders your motherland elects when you lived there just because you got out is the worst cowardice I can think of.
  - richrichie 3y ago
    This absurd. If extended it applies to citizens of all democracies including possibly you. FYI, US waged multiple illegal wars and has been responsible for deaths and injury of millions in the middle east. So has Israel and UK. That does not make them targets.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - devbent 3y ago
      Countries that feel the US has acted wrongly are free to impose sanctions against the US. That is how these things work.
      - richrichie 3y ago
        Don’t think anyone feels wrongly. They just do business with others. You do know that Europe still buys Russian gas, but routed through China and India, at higher prices, right?
dj_mc_merlin 3y ago
The entire premise is money without a central authority. This is a feature not a bug..
- wddkcs 3y ago
  "When can't shut off their money!" Would be a great Bitcoin commercial, except there's no one to make it.
jMyles 3y ago
> "This product makes it easy to illegally bypass international sanctions" is not the compliment you think it is. It feels like this is a wedge across the community here at HN right now. If the goal of the technology is to draw sovereignty from math and implement it in a way that's useful, then the capacity to trivially bypass legacy bugs (such as illubrication occurring in places where states assert their boundaries) seems like an enormous and meaningful compliment. Maybe you think those are features and not bugs, but that's a different discussion (one I'm happy to have and about which my heart sings true).
- 2muchcoffeeman 3y ago
  I think it’s a problem if you have to point to a poorly functioning country and go “see? Bitcoin works!” Meanwhile the poor locals need to somehow get enough technology and understand Bitcoin. And in developed countries, no one really wants it or only buy it to speculate, not to actually make transactions. Bitcoin ATMs used to be on the rise where I live many years ago. And I could make purchases. Now they are all gone. Seems like the people adopting crypto don’t have many choices.
richrichie 3y ago
[flagged]
- nullityrofl 3y ago
  I think you might have a hard time arguing that sanctions are illegal or unilateral given that many of them were voted on.
  - richrichie 3y ago
    Nope. These were voted in by one party to the war. Rest of the world has actually been busy doing business with Russia. In fact, FT and Economist report that Russian economy grew faster than most European economies.
    - dlp211 3y ago
      Russia is in a war economy. GDP = Government Spending + ....
      - richrichie 3y ago
        So is NATO. As an aside, even in peace times, US Federal government employs 12 million people.
- olliej 3y ago
  The whole goal of sanctions is to induce behaviours change without resorting to actual weapons. What do you think sanctions are meant to be?
dartos 3y ago
Depends on who you ask
raincole 3y ago
Yes, it's a much bigger compliment than the parent comment suggested. It's the sole point of cryptocurrency -- working around limits set by authorities.
akira2501 3y ago
"International sanctions" makes it sound like it has some legitimate worldwide weight that should be automatically respected by all people. Which works right up until you look at the exceptionally large list of things they want to sanction and you recognize that as the sole tool of "diplomacy" it can never work and might even qualify for crimes against humanity. Which actually is a huge compliment because it means that government permission is no longer required to spend your money how you please. Otherwise you're implicitly suggesting that Russia is somehow able to weather these sanctions only because bitcoin exists, or that bitcoin should be "reigned" in some way to make it compatible with arbitrary foreign government sanctions.
Ferret7446 3y ago
It doesn't sound like a compliment until one day you become "illegal". I don't think you'd be happy with most laws that have existed throughout history.
michael_vo 3y ago
That was not a compliment, just reporting the way btc is used. For a regular human in the real world they will make very rational economic decisions in their best interests. If the ATM fees are taking 20% of my money, of course I'm going to look for alternative systems of payments. If I can't use my Russian Rubles, of course I'm going to use BTC.

>it's very useful for the Russians to withdraw money in Turkey as well. "This product makes it easy to illegally bypass international sanctions" is not the compliment you think it is.

trappist 3y ago

Do you think that the world is a better place if ordinary Russians can't access their own money?

nerdwaller 3y ago
Just wait until their home banks interrogate them about how they want to spend their local currency they wish to withdraw or banks shut off withdrawals entirely due to systemic issues. Bitcoin may not be the end all solution, but it's a great current option.
nullityrofl 3y ago
This is the entire premise of sanctions, yes.
- grishka 3y ago
  To punish people for someone else's decision?
  - scrollaway 3y ago
    I wish to remind you that many everyday Russians participate in the war in a variety of ways, from diffusing propaganda, to a variety of associations with the Russian military complex, to being on the frontlines themselves. Those many everyday Russians punish people (Ukrainians mainly, Europeans in general) for someone else’s decision (Putin’s power trip). I also wish to remind you that hardship in Russia does not compare to hardship in Ukraine right now. I say this as someone with relatives in both countries today.
  - pokepim 3y ago
    [dead]
  - mopsi 3y ago
    Someone else's decision, and you are just following the orders? It doesn't work that way. Putin is not working in a factory building tanks and artillery shells. He is not in an office programming which cities ballistic missiles will hit. He is not piloting bombers or manning guns shooting at Ukraine. He is not sitting in tanks ravaging through Ukrainian countriside, he is not in cellars raping and torturing civilians, he has not personally committed any of the tens of thousands documented war crimes in Ukraine. Millions upon millions of "ordinary Russians" choose to do this every day. Without the majority of Russian society actively working to carry out Putin's ideas, or passively sitting on their asses and trying to pretend they have nothing to do with it, Putin would be just a raving madman without any influence on the world like Hitler in his final days. USSR collapsed when "ordinary Russians" simply stopped following orders. They were told to go there and do this, and they said NO in large enough numbers that the leaders were simply unable to do anything, because eventually even police and military stopped listening them. Russia has not yet reached this breaking point, and millions upon millions remain Putin's willing executioners, and bear the guilt that comes with it. Every day, Ukrainians put their lives on the line, and hundreds die, in a desperate attempt to stop the curse on the world that Russia has become, while "ordinary Russians" are unwilling to even stage a large protest.
    - grishka 3y ago
      There's an enormous separation between those "ordinary Russians" who are in survival mode and do all the things you said, and those other "ordinary Russians" like me who are actually affected by sanctions and have passports and care about traveling abroad and speak English and are against the war. The sanctions target the wrong ones. As for "unwilling to even stage a large protest", there's simply no one left to organize it. Those people who could do it are either in jail, in exile, or dead.
startupsfail 3y ago
The same ordinary Russians that voted for the person that was clearly a dictator on the raise? Or the same ones that are cheerfully sending their children to kill innocent people in Ukraine? Or the same ones that were completely apathetic to the political opposition being arrested, poisoned or killed? I’d say yes. That’s the point of the sanctions. And somebody should be tracing that Russian money on the ledger and getting the ill gotten properties traced and arrested.
- janalsncm 3y ago
  I don’t think many people would agree that Russia has free and fair elections. Russia declares political opponents to be terrorists, effectively narrowing the Overton Window to be perfectly Putin sized. Of course Russians don’t deserve economic hardship, but they don’t deserve to live in an autocracy either. And Ukrainians don’t deserve to be invaded. The lesson here is probably that the “great man” theory of history kind of ignores the everyday people whose lives were ruined by leaders who didn’t have to deal with the worst consequences of their decisions.
  - startupsfail 3y ago
    It’s the people that empower and enable. They are given guns, tanks, military aircrafts, missiles. They are manufacturing the weapons. It doesn’t look like any of these get accidentally launched onto Kremlin. Or turned against conscription. Or used in any kind of resistance. There are people there that are sacrificing their lives. Only for some reason, they are sacrificing these lives on the wrong side. On the side of supporting the dictatorship.
janalsncm 3y ago
The point of sanctions is as a disincentive against bad behavior at a national level. The bad behavior here is invading a sovereign country. If the sanctions worked it would cause internal pressure and shorten the war. Of course no one wants hardship for everyday Russians, but we should be able to say the same about everyday Ukrainians, many of whom have had their whole lives upended. The war is continuing because of only one man on the planet, and since violent options are off the table, functioning sanctions are the next best thing.
- Dalewyn 3y ago
  >The point of sanctions is as a disincentive against bad behavior at a national level. There is an argument to be made that sanctions don't work. Maybe they used to in the long distant past, but they don't now. Russia doesn't give even half a fuck, Iran gives negative fucks, North Korea gives no fucks, and China is turning the sanctions back against us, to name some prominent examples. I appreciate the west's desire to settle diplomatic problems using something other than war, but sanctions aren't the solution (anymore?).
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - aardvarkr 3y ago
    You claimed this based on vibes without citing any sources. Do you really think North Korea is thriving right now? How about Iran’s booming economy? The mighty Russian bear is so crippled by sanctions that China effectively owns them, with Russia entirely dependent on them to for everything besides oil. Every day that these sanctions against Iran, North Korea, and Russia are in place those countries fall further and further behind. Every day their economies become less and less competitive
    - Dalewyn 3y ago
      You say that, but Iran keeps on war merchanting, North Korea keeps on lobbing missiles, Russia keeps on warmongering, and China keeps on owning the world. Sanctions as they are right now don't work, and that is a problem.
wizardforhire 3y ago
Do you think the world is a better place if ordinary Russians are nuked along with ordinary people all over the world? Why beat around the bush? The reason we’re playing the sanctions game, or the proxy war game, or any other bullshit games nations are playing is because the alternative is worse.

grishka 3y ago

Those sanctions that do nothing for their alleged purpose (to make the war economically harder for the Russian government) yet disproportionately affect those people who can do absolutely nothing about them, right. I say that a very disgruntled Russian who hasn't had a sane, predictable life since 2020.

cdchn 3y ago
>who can do absolutely nothing about them There is a _bit_ of hope you'll do something about it.
- grishka 3y ago
  You seem really naive to think that this government has any feedback mechanisms whatsoever left.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - brokenmachine 3y ago
    Of course there's feedback mechanisms. You just don't want to use them for whatever reason.
    - infamouscow 3y ago
      What's funny is in the US, when even the slightest hint of that occurred, one side completely freaked out. Just imagine if those folks were armed, or say even 10% of the population were heavily armed and in support of that. It also probably doesn't help that the overwhelming majority of experienced combat veterans the US spent millions per troop training for the last 20 years would be on their side, not yours. That layers on top of their real world experience of bullets wizzing and cracking by, living in shit conditions, and holding their friends in their arms as they die. You're a feeble Internet nerd whose position is an aberration of history. I'm sure you'll selectively apply your morals rather than having enough intelligence to understand what you're advocating. This is pretty reprehensible and you should be embarrassed.

kaliqt 3y ago

Russian citizens aren't criminals. The sanctions are wrong.

aforwardslash 3y ago
Like it or not, in a democracy, all citizens bear responsability for the actions of their state. I'm not saying people are individually accountable for every little detail, but they are for the collective of their misdeeds. Either it is a democracy and the majority of the population is on board with it - explicitly or by ineptitude - or it is a dictatorship and they are cumplicit by inaction. If we were discussing nazi party sympathizers in 1940 you wouldn't be even giving them the benefit of the doubt; the truth is, many people got onboard with what was going on because it wasn't with them directly. They got on with the party because it was what every one was doing at the time. Turning a blind eye to the atrocities performed by the leaders your motherland elects when you lived there just because you got out is the worst cowardice I can think of.
- richrichie 3y ago
  This absurd. If extended it applies to citizens of all democracies including possibly you. FYI, US waged multiple illegal wars and has been responsible for deaths and injury of millions in the middle east. So has Israel and UK. That does not make them targets.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - devbent 3y ago
    Countries that feel the US has acted wrongly are free to impose sanctions against the US. That is how these things work.
    - richrichie 3y ago
      Don’t think anyone feels wrongly. They just do business with others. You do know that Europe still buys Russian gas, but routed through China and India, at higher prices, right?

dj_mc_merlin 3y ago

The entire premise is money without a central authority. This is a feature not a bug..

wddkcs 3y ago
"When can't shut off their money!" Would be a great Bitcoin commercial, except there's no one to make it.

jMyles 3y ago

> "This product makes it easy to illegally bypass international sanctions" is not the compliment you think it is. It feels like this is a wedge across the community here at HN right now. If the goal of the technology is to draw sovereignty from math and implement it in a way that's useful, then the capacity to trivially bypass legacy bugs (such as illubrication occurring in places where states assert their boundaries) seems like an enormous and meaningful compliment. Maybe you think those are features and not bugs, but that's a different discussion (one I'm happy to have and about which my heart sings true).

2muchcoffeeman 3y ago
I think it’s a problem if you have to point to a poorly functioning country and go “see? Bitcoin works!” Meanwhile the poor locals need to somehow get enough technology and understand Bitcoin. And in developed countries, no one really wants it or only buy it to speculate, not to actually make transactions. Bitcoin ATMs used to be on the rise where I live many years ago. And I could make purchases. Now they are all gone. Seems like the people adopting crypto don’t have many choices.

richrichie 3y ago

[flagged]

nullityrofl 3y ago
I think you might have a hard time arguing that sanctions are illegal or unilateral given that many of them were voted on.
- richrichie 3y ago
  Nope. These were voted in by one party to the war. Rest of the world has actually been busy doing business with Russia. In fact, FT and Economist report that Russian economy grew faster than most European economies.
  - dlp211 3y ago
    Russia is in a war economy. GDP = Government Spending + ....
    - richrichie 3y ago
      So is NATO. As an aside, even in peace times, US Federal government employs 12 million people.
olliej 3y ago
The whole goal of sanctions is to induce behaviours change without resorting to actual weapons. What do you think sanctions are meant to be?

dartos 3y ago

Depends on who you ask

raincole 3y ago

Yes, it's a much bigger compliment than the parent comment suggested. It's the sole point of cryptocurrency -- working around limits set by authorities.

akira2501 3y ago

"International sanctions" makes it sound like it has some legitimate worldwide weight that should be automatically respected by all people. Which works right up until you look at the exceptionally large list of things they want to sanction and you recognize that as the sole tool of "diplomacy" it can never work and might even qualify for crimes against humanity. Which actually is a huge compliment because it means that government permission is no longer required to spend your money how you please. Otherwise you're implicitly suggesting that Russia is somehow able to weather these sanctions only because bitcoin exists, or that bitcoin should be "reigned" in some way to make it compatible with arbitrary foreign government sanctions.

Ferret7446 3y ago

It doesn't sound like a compliment until one day you become "illegal". I don't think you'd be happy with most laws that have existed throughout history.

michael_vo 3y ago

That was not a compliment, just reporting the way btc is used. For a regular human in the real world they will make very rational economic decisions in their best interests. If the ATM fees are taking 20% of my money, of course I'm going to look for alternative systems of payments. If I can't use my Russian Rubles, of course I'm going to use BTC.