4 ms·

There's always one of these in these discussions. "We thought we were nice to them so bringing them into existence simply to consume them feels ok"

bamboozled 3y ago
What is the issue with it? If they lead fairy nice long lives, I don't get it? You must fundamentally have a problem with existence because nearly any creature that lives in the wild is going to have a very gruesome, painful lonely death. If the worst thing that can happen is a chicken is protected, fed, given medicine when sick, have offspring and then eventually slaughtered in a rather human way after adulthood, I don't really see how it's so terrible.
- anonzzzies 3y ago
  But where does that stop: I can replace chicken here with your kids; still ok? What’s the difference? Dogs? Chimpansees? Dolphins? Why chickens ok and the rest not in the same example?
  - bamboozled 3y ago
    If a much more intelligent species comes to earth and says, we'll kill you all now , or we'll farm you for organs, at age 70; However, we'll help your species have a fairly good life and chance of survival overall ? I'd take it. Even if my kids were impacted. Then imagine if they said: "it's likely that due to advancements in science, in 50 years we won't need to do this anymore because we'll have lab grown organs so we'll just leave you guys alone when we have what we need". I would double take that deal. This is likely where we are now. The major difference with all of this discussion though is that obviously, animals are conscious, I don't believe they're capable of reasoning where they would be disturbed or troubled by such a deal. We're capable of understanding that our kids will be slaughtered for organs in 70 years from their birth. We also have strong emotions tied to this. So we'd be upset about it so I think that makes it a worse deal. Not the worst possible deal in such a theoretical circumstance, but it would be better than annihilation. Definitely not saying this means this is ideal for anyone, animals or humans, nothing is perfect, I just don't think it's catastrophic.
    - anonzzzies 3y ago
      From some intelligent specifies like squids we don’t know: maybe they are disturbed by it and fear and hate humanity and plan their lives to be far away from them. They do plan and they remember things over generations. Not believing they can reason or proving they cannot reason are different things.
      - bamboozled 3y ago
        I was fishing once, and I saw squid maul the face off a small yellow tail fish, I think the thing was still alive, it was a hideous way to go either way. It was one of the first times I realized how cruel the world can be. I used my sharp knife and made sure the little thing out of it's misery. But yeah, imagine that, being hugged by a squid and having your face chewed off by it's beak ? When I take the same fish, I use a fish spike, it's instant. Anyway, if Squid are conscious and have such high levels of thought as you describe, then they understand the game and are likely undisturbed by it. If squid went vegan, then I'd feel worse. This is why I think hunting is a much more fair way of obtaining protein. We're playing a much fairer game, factory farming and raping the ocean with super trawlers isn't.
        anonzzzies 3y ago
        But if we have to hunt our food then all those ‘ma meat must have ma meat’ dudes living in shitty small overcrowded city apartments wouldn’t be able to get their meat and they would get very angry. Probably to the point of them starting to eat other humans as those are perfectly hunt-able in big cities.
        BriggyDwiggs42 3y ago
        Squids don’t have the option and we, admittedly, do. Nature is intrinsically and deeply cruel, but we could choose not to contribute. I think that if we do contribute, we should admit we do it for the pleasure of eating nice tasty meat and just call it worth it. I do agree with the whole hunting is better thing, but I don’t think there’s any objective reason, just vibes. I also think that, if we can grow like lab meat in the future, we should switch to that. It’s not gonna be viable for a long time tho.
  - BriggyDwiggs42 3y ago
    They don’t know, that’s the difference. A human would be haunted by that for their entire life, in the same way that humans suffer because of fear of death. Chickens, dumb or not, don’t seem capable of knowing that that’s going to happen, so they enjoy their constructed lives more than a human would.
brigadier132 3y ago
Everything dies, dying in nature is never free of suffering for these animals.

bamboozled 3y ago

What is the issue with it? If they lead fairy nice long lives, I don't get it? You must fundamentally have a problem with existence because nearly any creature that lives in the wild is going to have a very gruesome, painful lonely death. If the worst thing that can happen is a chicken is protected, fed, given medicine when sick, have offspring and then eventually slaughtered in a rather human way after adulthood, I don't really see how it's so terrible.

anonzzzies 3y ago
But where does that stop: I can replace chicken here with your kids; still ok? What’s the difference? Dogs? Chimpansees? Dolphins? Why chickens ok and the rest not in the same example?
- bamboozled 3y ago
  If a much more intelligent species comes to earth and says, we'll kill you all now , or we'll farm you for organs, at age 70; However, we'll help your species have a fairly good life and chance of survival overall ? I'd take it. Even if my kids were impacted. Then imagine if they said: "it's likely that due to advancements in science, in 50 years we won't need to do this anymore because we'll have lab grown organs so we'll just leave you guys alone when we have what we need". I would double take that deal. This is likely where we are now. The major difference with all of this discussion though is that obviously, animals are conscious, I don't believe they're capable of reasoning where they would be disturbed or troubled by such a deal. We're capable of understanding that our kids will be slaughtered for organs in 70 years from their birth. We also have strong emotions tied to this. So we'd be upset about it so I think that makes it a worse deal. Not the worst possible deal in such a theoretical circumstance, but it would be better than annihilation. Definitely not saying this means this is ideal for anyone, animals or humans, nothing is perfect, I just don't think it's catastrophic.
  - anonzzzies 3y ago
    From some intelligent specifies like squids we don’t know: maybe they are disturbed by it and fear and hate humanity and plan their lives to be far away from them. They do plan and they remember things over generations. Not believing they can reason or proving they cannot reason are different things.
    - bamboozled 3y ago
      I was fishing once, and I saw squid maul the face off a small yellow tail fish, I think the thing was still alive, it was a hideous way to go either way. It was one of the first times I realized how cruel the world can be. I used my sharp knife and made sure the little thing out of it's misery. But yeah, imagine that, being hugged by a squid and having your face chewed off by it's beak ? When I take the same fish, I use a fish spike, it's instant. Anyway, if Squid are conscious and have such high levels of thought as you describe, then they understand the game and are likely undisturbed by it. If squid went vegan, then I'd feel worse. This is why I think hunting is a much more fair way of obtaining protein. We're playing a much fairer game, factory farming and raping the ocean with super trawlers isn't.
      - anonzzzies 3y ago
        But if we have to hunt our food then all those ‘ma meat must have ma meat’ dudes living in shitty small overcrowded city apartments wouldn’t be able to get their meat and they would get very angry. Probably to the point of them starting to eat other humans as those are perfectly hunt-able in big cities.
      - BriggyDwiggs42 3y ago
        Squids don’t have the option and we, admittedly, do. Nature is intrinsically and deeply cruel, but we could choose not to contribute. I think that if we do contribute, we should admit we do it for the pleasure of eating nice tasty meat and just call it worth it. I do agree with the whole hunting is better thing, but I don’t think there’s any objective reason, just vibes. I also think that, if we can grow like lab meat in the future, we should switch to that. It’s not gonna be viable for a long time tho.
- BriggyDwiggs42 3y ago
  They don’t know, that’s the difference. A human would be haunted by that for their entire life, in the same way that humans suffer because of fear of death. Chickens, dumb or not, don’t seem capable of knowing that that’s going to happen, so they enjoy their constructed lives more than a human would.

brigadier132 3y ago

Everything dies, dying in nature is never free of suffering for these animals.