3 ms·

It keeps chugging, but it's not terribly useful for a typical person. Close to $20 for a transaction that takes an hour or so to complete is kinda rough.

jkoudys 3y ago
Crypto "currency"
dzhiurgis 3y ago
For a secure long term store of value thats kinda fast and cheap
- cqqxo4zV46cp 3y ago
  Yeah. Way to move the goalposts from the praises that Bitcoin evangelists historically, and currently, sing though.
- bpye 3y ago
  It may be technologically secure, but it is still very volatile compared to more traditional options. That doesn’t seem to be a good thing.
whimsicalism 3y ago
yeah the uses will be on the l2s
- talldayo 3y ago
  ...which themselves are unique projects that might as well separate from the L1 chain entirely if they intend to actually solve the transaction bottleneck issue. Stuff like Lightning is cute on paper, but it really only stands to make you realize how horribly doomed the main currency is conceptually. L2 chains are where I stopped being interested in crypto. It's like reading the plaque of Ozymandias and thinking to yourself "Ah, the desert. What a lovely place to build my next palace."
  - whimsicalism 3y ago
    I mean I think that bitcoin is a dumb project, but layer 2s clearly make sense and are an inevitability - another chain has custody and keeps track of its own state and lets you do custom things there.
- stale2002 3y ago
  And here comes the argument about the lightning network that I literally have been hearing since 2017. For as "inevitable" as it's supporters claim it to be, it sure is taking a long time for anyone to care about it, outside of bitcoin maxi twitter influencers. The rest of the crypto industry has moved on. It simply took to long for bitcoin to be used for anything outside of speculation. And other chains have taken up the actual transactions usecase.
  - talldayo 3y ago
    They call it Lightning because it's a last-ditch attempt to Frankenstein Bitcoin back to life!
  - whimsicalism 3y ago
    oh i just meant this in general about transaction cases, i actually think bitcoin sucks compared to ethereum
kaliqt 3y ago
Think about this: wire transfers. It has happened many times banks hold up the transactions and skim off the top with fees. Bitcoin has no such issue, it's completely transparent and far cheaper.
- JohnTHaller 3y ago
  I send wire transfers via Wise for about $4. I can receive ACH payments for free. I do both with PortableApps.com. The transaction fees for Bitcoin are so high, most of our users stopped using it for donations and things. Back in 2013, we'd get a BTC donation every week or two. Now we get one maybe every 3 months. In 2013, the average BTC transaction fee was about 3 cents. Today, the average fee was $19.76.
smallmancontrov 3y ago
When was the last time you bought groceries with a bank reserve? If tradfi can have two layers above the reserve assets, why can't crypto?
nailer 3y ago
Most modern L1s have transaction fees of a fraction of a penny and confirmation times similar to tapping a credit card.
- nailer 3y ago
  Not complaining about moderation but it’s interesting to note that something factual and easily verifiable is being downvoted. It’s very much the ‘my bags’ crypto culture.
brigadier132 3y ago
It's digital currency without counterparty risk and no inflation risk. Similar to why gold is useful as a store of value. You can hide it, and if nobody knows it exists nobody can take it from you. The downside is if people know you have it you can be robbed. If you are a normal person in a stable country it's not terribly useful. If you are a normal person in a not so stable place, it can be very useful to you.
- skybrian 3y ago
  It's odd how people say "no inflation risk" when the price of Bitcoin goes down sometimes, and it's the same thing. Inflation is a price change. The difference, of course, is that the price of Bitcoin also goes up sometimes.
  - brigadier132 3y ago
    Look, I'm not talking about it as a speculative asset, I'm just stating why it can be useful. And by inflation risk I meant risk of being devalued due to artificial increases in supply.
    - skybrian 3y ago
      The thing is, users don’t care why the currency lost value, just that it did. Fixing one reason for that is only a start. Inelastic supply means the price depends entirely on demand, so it will shoot up and down when demand changes. This is a speculator’s playground. But another word for the situation causing a price increase is a shortage. Stability comes from elastic supply that responds to demand. Algorithmic stablecoins are snake oil, but they do appear to have more stable prices until they collapse. To prevent that, there needs to be someone willing to buy back the currency when demand collapses (losing a lot of money in the process) rather than running away like everyone else. Does Bitcoin have enough die-hard believers to do that? So far they’ve been able to stave off complete collapse and come back stronger, but in the future, who knows. When investors get spooked and sell off Bitcoin ETF’s, what happens?
- throw0101c 3y ago
Ferret7446 3y ago
Define "typical person". The average person does not live in a first world country with relatively stable banking systems.

jkoudys 3y ago

Crypto "currency"

dzhiurgis 3y ago

For a secure long term store of value thats kinda fast and cheap

cqqxo4zV46cp 3y ago
Yeah. Way to move the goalposts from the praises that Bitcoin evangelists historically, and currently, sing though.
bpye 3y ago
It may be technologically secure, but it is still very volatile compared to more traditional options. That doesn’t seem to be a good thing.

whimsicalism 3y ago

yeah the uses will be on the l2s

talldayo 3y ago
...which themselves are unique projects that might as well separate from the L1 chain entirely if they intend to actually solve the transaction bottleneck issue. Stuff like Lightning is cute on paper, but it really only stands to make you realize how horribly doomed the main currency is conceptually. L2 chains are where I stopped being interested in crypto. It's like reading the plaque of Ozymandias and thinking to yourself "Ah, the desert. What a lovely place to build my next palace."
- whimsicalism 3y ago
  I mean I think that bitcoin is a dumb project, but layer 2s clearly make sense and are an inevitability - another chain has custody and keeps track of its own state and lets you do custom things there.
stale2002 3y ago
And here comes the argument about the lightning network that I literally have been hearing since 2017. For as "inevitable" as it's supporters claim it to be, it sure is taking a long time for anyone to care about it, outside of bitcoin maxi twitter influencers. The rest of the crypto industry has moved on. It simply took to long for bitcoin to be used for anything outside of speculation. And other chains have taken up the actual transactions usecase.
- talldayo 3y ago
  They call it Lightning because it's a last-ditch attempt to Frankenstein Bitcoin back to life!
- whimsicalism 3y ago
  oh i just meant this in general about transaction cases, i actually think bitcoin sucks compared to ethereum

kaliqt 3y ago

Think about this: wire transfers. It has happened many times banks hold up the transactions and skim off the top with fees. Bitcoin has no such issue, it's completely transparent and far cheaper.

JohnTHaller 3y ago
I send wire transfers via Wise for about $4. I can receive ACH payments for free. I do both with PortableApps.com. The transaction fees for Bitcoin are so high, most of our users stopped using it for donations and things. Back in 2013, we'd get a BTC donation every week or two. Now we get one maybe every 3 months. In 2013, the average BTC transaction fee was about 3 cents. Today, the average fee was $19.76.

smallmancontrov 3y ago

When was the last time you bought groceries with a bank reserve? If tradfi can have two layers above the reserve assets, why can't crypto?

nailer 3y ago

Most modern L1s have transaction fees of a fraction of a penny and confirmation times similar to tapping a credit card.

nailer 3y ago
Not complaining about moderation but it’s interesting to note that something factual and easily verifiable is being downvoted. It’s very much the ‘my bags’ crypto culture.

brigadier132 3y ago

It's digital currency without counterparty risk and no inflation risk. Similar to why gold is useful as a store of value. You can hide it, and if nobody knows it exists nobody can take it from you. The downside is if people know you have it you can be robbed. If you are a normal person in a stable country it's not terribly useful. If you are a normal person in a not so stable place, it can be very useful to you.

skybrian 3y ago
It's odd how people say "no inflation risk" when the price of Bitcoin goes down sometimes, and it's the same thing. Inflation is a price change. The difference, of course, is that the price of Bitcoin also goes up sometimes.
- brigadier132 3y ago
  Look, I'm not talking about it as a speculative asset, I'm just stating why it can be useful. And by inflation risk I meant risk of being devalued due to artificial increases in supply.
  - skybrian 3y ago
    The thing is, users don’t care why the currency lost value, just that it did. Fixing one reason for that is only a start. Inelastic supply means the price depends entirely on demand, so it will shoot up and down when demand changes. This is a speculator’s playground. But another word for the situation causing a price increase is a shortage. Stability comes from elastic supply that responds to demand. Algorithmic stablecoins are snake oil, but they do appear to have more stable prices until they collapse. To prevent that, there needs to be someone willing to buy back the currency when demand collapses (losing a lot of money in the process) rather than running away like everyone else. Does Bitcoin have enough die-hard believers to do that? So far they’ve been able to stave off complete collapse and come back stronger, but in the future, who knows. When investors get spooked and sell off Bitcoin ETF’s, what happens?
throw0101c 3y ago

Ferret7446 3y ago

Define "typical person". The average person does not live in a first world country with relatively stable banking systems.