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The LinkedIn page for a lot of these companies showing you "Where they studied" can be a bit intimidating. Chockablock with Stanford and Ivy League. I was fill

by Rapzid 3y ago

The LinkedIn page for a lot of these companies showing you "Where they studied" can be a bit intimidating. Chockablock with Stanford and Ivy League. I was filling out the Co-Founder matching service application and it has a required text area for education. The placeholder text examples? Standford MS in Comp Sci, NYU BS in Physics. As a college dropout with "some college" but a 14+ year career in systems/software engineering roles, that was quite discouraging.

dang 3y ago
I'm with you and wish that we were more careful with this sort of signaling risk. However, there are tons of college dropouts and uncredentialed software people who make it in to YC. What I'm basically trying to tell everyone, and hoping to convince a few, is: don't listen to any of this, just do it.
- Rapzid 3y ago
  I'm also with you! Just wanted to share my experience in case it helps as a data point. Gates, Jobs, and Zuck all famously dropped out of college of course. It's an interesting and tricky social dynamic matching within and between these somewhat distinct groups.
  - bdjsiqoocwk 3y ago
    Didn't they ask drop out from Harvard or something? It's a bit disingenuous to say that.
    - tempusalaria 3y ago
      Steve Jobs went to an obscure private school called Reed which seems to be something he became obsessed with due to LSD. Zuck and Gates both dropped out of Harvard after founding their companies.
      - alephnerd 3y ago
        Reed is a great liberal arts college. Very intense and quirky academic culture, and being in Portland OR lends to an amazing college town vibe. Sometimes I wish I went there instead of my Alma mater.
  - dgfitz 3y ago
    So did Elizabeth Holmes.
    - swores 3y ago
      They were arguing success is possible without a college degree, not that lacking a college degree guarantees success.
      - dgfitz 3y ago
        No. They were naming famous people who dropped out of college.
        swores 3y ago
        I didn't say it was a good argument, just want their intention was. But they did at least give examples that showed the claim was potentially valid, whereas your example wasn't relevant at all (nor did it make the point you've switched to about them not making an argument).
        Rapzid 3y ago
        Yes, within the context of the "conversation" I was pointing out examples of why a required "enter your Ivy League history here" box might push away famously successful subset of startup founders. You could argue YC wants people that wouldn't be discouraged by that. I'd argue that due to survivorship bias that would be hard to quantify, and that YC is competing with others for the best ideas so they might just end up somewhere else. To expand a bit; I wasn't actually discouraged.. I was more put-off and slightly offended. It did make me stop filling out the co-founder match in the moment, but I was always planning to swing back around on it. There is a trend I notice where people just drop low effort argumentative responses. They aren't even fully realized counter arguments. I try not to engage when they are targeting me; it's better for a third party to shut them down. It's super bad on Reddit and unfortunately ruins r/dotnet .
  - hindsightbias 3y ago
    > Gates, Jobs, and Zuck Harvard, Reed, Harvard. Any drop out from any of those has hurdled more than 98% of the general college corps. Or at least that would be a rational assumption by the VC cadre that is probably in the top 0.1% and an Ivy League grad.
    - carabiner 3y ago
      [flagged]
    - Rapzid 3y ago
      People are commenting on this but failing to stake out a real point. Is the point that just having been accepted to those schools is a strong signal? I would concede that it could be, sure. But a lot of people drop out of Ivy league schools and simply flame out. Many would consider dropping out of those schools after a few semesters as failure. And many companies still require degrees; a few semesters at Harvard won't cut it. I guess my point is that college dropouts are also successful at creating startups. Two have started the two most valuable companies in the world.
      - brandall10 3y ago
        I'd argue getting accepted is almost the entire signal. These people dropped out to chase extremely lucrative business opportunities - that they created as a student, likely aided by structural/networking support inside that institution - due to timing risk. One could argue they not only got into a highly prestigious institution, but they quickly leapfrogged everyone there. That's the opposite of flaming out.
- dimmke 3y ago
  Just curious, I was filling out my profile and it says Education History required. Normally that means college experience. I only did one year at a local community college. Should I just put that? My cofounder is attending a well respected school though.
  - dang 3y ago
    Sure why not? If I were you I'd try not to worry too much about what will/won't seem good—what YC is pattern-matching for is usually quite different than what people assume.
- vertis 3y ago
  There is likely some level of selection bias to it as well. If I think it's unlikely to get in without that ivy/engineering school background I might not bother to apply. I don't personally believe that -- I'm confident in my 23 years of experience. It's unlikely I'll apply this weekend, but I did find a cofounder through the YC dating app. Maybe next batch.
- lelanthran 3y ago
  Does it have to be US citizens, living in the US? How about a native South African, born in SA?
  - dang 3y ago
    Anyone can apply - you needn't be a US citizen (I'm not, for example) and you are most welcome to be South African. Edit: I asked my informant and they said that YC has funded 6 South African founders since 2017, which I guess is how far that data goes back to. We agreed that it seems like there should be more!
    - lelanthran 3y ago
      Thanks! I'll keep in mind, so won't make it for this intake. Still on the fence on whether I need the rocket fuel or not, and my co-founder hasn't yet weighed in either (we're still in exploratory phase of some potential products, so not in 100% yet).
jasperstory 3y ago
Just finished W24 batch with no Ivy/FAANG background. Everyone I met in our batch was very friendly, curious, and razor-sharp. Many people have credentialed backgrounds, many people do not. I generally buy YC’s justification that many of the smartest people happen to go to Stanford/Ivy which is why they are over-represented.
- dgfitz 3y ago
  I don’t think you can make that argument in good faith: “many of the smartest people happen to go to Stanford/Ivy”. I think you _can_ say that many smart people go to Stanford/Ivy.
  - sokoloff 3y ago
    In the usage above “many of” I read to mean “smart people are significantly over-represented” at those places rather than anything stronger.
- _akhe 3y ago
  > the smartest people happen to go to Stanford There's no way this is even possible, let alone true. This might be a hot take but if you're under the age of 25, it's likely that you know very few things total. And the things you do know, you're just not going to have a master level of understanding of in your 20s yet nor the drive to focus on it the way it needs, especially with other social pressures at play. What is extremely high in your 20s is your ambition - your loftiness of ideas and goals and your expectations of yourself - these can land you exceptional jobs, opportunities, and get you to a great starting point, but that's not the same as intelligence and ability. For manual labor work, there's a definite peak - college age and the years just after. But for knowledge work, math, programming, business, politics, etc. being older is almost always an asset - you get better at things, you get smarter, your networks grow, you become an adult among the children and are far more aware of timing and can predict and speak on things with more accuracy. You simply know more. Besides that, I don't think raw intelligence is selection criteria for a good founder anyway. It has a lot more to do with your particular situation - how well you're situated to pull it off, which can mean many things. In terms of personal qualities it probably has more to do with determination and obsession (work ethic) than intelligence, especially these days where information is so cheap and available.
lispybanana 3y ago
Discouraging, sure, but now the real question: did you apply anyway? :) I hope you did!
vertis 3y ago
I dropped out of the University of Wollongong in ~2001 (points if you know where that is without looking it up), I've had a great 23 year career so far. I agree that the cofounder dating was intimidating, and even some of the people fit into that category. Far more didn't though, and I've found an exceptional cofounder through it, which is one of the most exciting things in a very long career. (I'll get around to doing YC at some point)
- pm 3y ago
  i was hanging around the Gong around then; I'm in Rads and was attempting to make a game with some friends from there at the time. Those were some fun times.

by Rapzid 3y ago

dang 3y ago

I'm with you and wish that we were more careful with this sort of signaling risk. However, there are tons of college dropouts and uncredentialed software people who make it in to YC. What I'm basically trying to tell everyone, and hoping to convince a few, is: don't listen to any of this, just do it.

Rapzid 3y ago
I'm also with you! Just wanted to share my experience in case it helps as a data point. Gates, Jobs, and Zuck all famously dropped out of college of course. It's an interesting and tricky social dynamic matching within and between these somewhat distinct groups.
- bdjsiqoocwk 3y ago
  Didn't they ask drop out from Harvard or something? It's a bit disingenuous to say that.
  - tempusalaria 3y ago
    Steve Jobs went to an obscure private school called Reed which seems to be something he became obsessed with due to LSD. Zuck and Gates both dropped out of Harvard after founding their companies.
    - alephnerd 3y ago
      Reed is a great liberal arts college. Very intense and quirky academic culture, and being in Portland OR lends to an amazing college town vibe. Sometimes I wish I went there instead of my Alma mater.
- dgfitz 3y ago
  So did Elizabeth Holmes.
  - swores 3y ago
    They were arguing success is possible without a college degree, not that lacking a college degree guarantees success.
    - dgfitz 3y ago
      No. They were naming famous people who dropped out of college.
      - swores 3y ago
        I didn't say it was a good argument, just want their intention was. But they did at least give examples that showed the claim was potentially valid, whereas your example wasn't relevant at all (nor did it make the point you've switched to about them not making an argument).
        Rapzid 3y ago
        Yes, within the context of the "conversation" I was pointing out examples of why a required "enter your Ivy League history here" box might push away famously successful subset of startup founders. You could argue YC wants people that wouldn't be discouraged by that. I'd argue that due to survivorship bias that would be hard to quantify, and that YC is competing with others for the best ideas so they might just end up somewhere else. To expand a bit; I wasn't actually discouraged.. I was more put-off and slightly offended. It did make me stop filling out the co-founder match in the moment, but I was always planning to swing back around on it. There is a trend I notice where people just drop low effort argumentative responses. They aren't even fully realized counter arguments. I try not to engage when they are targeting me; it's better for a third party to shut them down. It's super bad on Reddit and unfortunately ruins r/dotnet .
- hindsightbias 3y ago
  > Gates, Jobs, and Zuck Harvard, Reed, Harvard. Any drop out from any of those has hurdled more than 98% of the general college corps. Or at least that would be a rational assumption by the VC cadre that is probably in the top 0.1% and an Ivy League grad.
  - carabiner 3y ago
    [flagged]
  - Rapzid 3y ago
    People are commenting on this but failing to stake out a real point. Is the point that just having been accepted to those schools is a strong signal? I would concede that it could be, sure. But a lot of people drop out of Ivy league schools and simply flame out. Many would consider dropping out of those schools after a few semesters as failure. And many companies still require degrees; a few semesters at Harvard won't cut it. I guess my point is that college dropouts are also successful at creating startups. Two have started the two most valuable companies in the world.
    - brandall10 3y ago
      I'd argue getting accepted is almost the entire signal. These people dropped out to chase extremely lucrative business opportunities - that they created as a student, likely aided by structural/networking support inside that institution - due to timing risk. One could argue they not only got into a highly prestigious institution, but they quickly leapfrogged everyone there. That's the opposite of flaming out.
dimmke 3y ago
Just curious, I was filling out my profile and it says Education History required. Normally that means college experience. I only did one year at a local community college. Should I just put that? My cofounder is attending a well respected school though.
- dang 3y ago
  Sure why not? If I were you I'd try not to worry too much about what will/won't seem good—what YC is pattern-matching for is usually quite different than what people assume.
vertis 3y ago
There is likely some level of selection bias to it as well. If I think it's unlikely to get in without that ivy/engineering school background I might not bother to apply. I don't personally believe that -- I'm confident in my 23 years of experience. It's unlikely I'll apply this weekend, but I did find a cofounder through the YC dating app. Maybe next batch.
lelanthran 3y ago
Does it have to be US citizens, living in the US? How about a native South African, born in SA?
- dang 3y ago
  Anyone can apply - you needn't be a US citizen (I'm not, for example) and you are most welcome to be South African. Edit: I asked my informant and they said that YC has funded 6 South African founders since 2017, which I guess is how far that data goes back to. We agreed that it seems like there should be more!
  - lelanthran 3y ago
    Thanks! I'll keep in mind, so won't make it for this intake. Still on the fence on whether I need the rocket fuel or not, and my co-founder hasn't yet weighed in either (we're still in exploratory phase of some potential products, so not in 100% yet).

jasperstory 3y ago

Just finished W24 batch with no Ivy/FAANG background. Everyone I met in our batch was very friendly, curious, and razor-sharp. Many people have credentialed backgrounds, many people do not. I generally buy YC’s justification that many of the smartest people happen to go to Stanford/Ivy which is why they are over-represented.

dgfitz 3y ago
I don’t think you can make that argument in good faith: “many of the smartest people happen to go to Stanford/Ivy”. I think you _can_ say that many smart people go to Stanford/Ivy.
- sokoloff 3y ago
  In the usage above “many of” I read to mean “smart people are significantly over-represented” at those places rather than anything stronger.
_akhe 3y ago
> the smartest people happen to go to Stanford There's no way this is even possible, let alone true. This might be a hot take but if you're under the age of 25, it's likely that you know very few things total. And the things you do know, you're just not going to have a master level of understanding of in your 20s yet nor the drive to focus on it the way it needs, especially with other social pressures at play. What is extremely high in your 20s is your ambition - your loftiness of ideas and goals and your expectations of yourself - these can land you exceptional jobs, opportunities, and get you to a great starting point, but that's not the same as intelligence and ability. For manual labor work, there's a definite peak - college age and the years just after. But for knowledge work, math, programming, business, politics, etc. being older is almost always an asset - you get better at things, you get smarter, your networks grow, you become an adult among the children and are far more aware of timing and can predict and speak on things with more accuracy. You simply know more. Besides that, I don't think raw intelligence is selection criteria for a good founder anyway. It has a lot more to do with your particular situation - how well you're situated to pull it off, which can mean many things. In terms of personal qualities it probably has more to do with determination and obsession (work ethic) than intelligence, especially these days where information is so cheap and available.

lispybanana 3y ago

Discouraging, sure, but now the real question: did you apply anyway? :) I hope you did!

vertis 3y ago

I dropped out of the University of Wollongong in ~2001 (points if you know where that is without looking it up), I've had a great 23 year career so far. I agree that the cofounder dating was intimidating, and even some of the people fit into that category. Far more didn't though, and I've found an exceptional cofounder through it, which is one of the most exciting things in a very long career. (I'll get around to doing YC at some point)

pm 3y ago
i was hanging around the Gong around then; I'm in Rads and was attempting to make a game with some friends from there at the time. Those were some fun times.