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So instead of allowing the price at the pump to nudge up and naturally make EVs more attractive (and traditional gasoline vehicles less attractive), our governm

So instead of allowing the price at the pump to nudge up and naturally make EVs more attractive (and traditional gasoline vehicles less attractive), our government would rather lower the price at the pump and offer tax credits and such to encourage EV buying. It's a solid game of playing politics, but a textbook case in governmental ass-backwards-ary. We'll know we're serious about the environment and climate change when such disconnects are mitigated.

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Workaccount2 3y ago
Society on the whole votes for people who say they will lick the wound.
Spivak 3y ago
I'm not sure why you don't see this as a best of both worlds situation. It encourages EV adoption by dangling a carrot instead of using a stick. The unfortunate reality is that EVs are still unaffordable for most people and don't seem on track to ever reach the <$15k car buyer. And it doesn't seem like EV By US standards I'm extremely well off and I've never even considered buying a $30k car which is the cheapest EV you can buy right now. You won't do anything to encourage EV adoption by making gas more expensive because the people who are the most price sensitive to gas can't make the switch and the people who aren't won't care and have to be convinced in some other way. You're just making most drivers worse off and getting nothing in return.
- toomuchtodo 3y ago
  These are the cheapest cars you can buy new in the US as of this comment. None are sub $15k. Average new car price is ~$48k. I'm sure that is dragged up by ~$100k vehicles, but this idea you're going to get a new car for under $15k is not grounded in reality based on current market conditions. That market will solely be served by the used car market. 2023 Mitsubishi Mirage ES: $17,650 | 2023 Kia Rio LX: $17,875 | 2023 Nissan Versa S: $18,595 | 2023 Kia Forte LX: $20,815 | 2023 Hyundai Venue SE: $20,985 | 2023 Nissan Sentra S: $21,145 | 2023 Kia Soul LX: $21,215 | 2024 Chevrolet Trax LS: $21,495 | 2023 Hyundai Elantra SE: $22,065 | 2023 Subaru Impreza: $22,115
  - Spivak 3y ago
    Right, the $15k car buyer is buying used and the used EV story is complicated depending on what price point you need to hit because you'll be close to the battery warranty running out (if you're not in CA) and that replacement will be almost the cost of the whole car. It's really hard to compete with the "buy a mass-market ICE Honda/Toyota at 60-80k and drive it to 250k." At any other time I would argue that it's probably a wash or in favor of the EV with repairs but they're so reliable that you're hard pressed to have your first major issue sub 200k. Edit: Ya know I just went searching in my area and you get get some 30k mile 2020+ Bolts in the $15k price point. But I'm also a little suspicious because literally any other EV at that mileage is more than double so I want to know what's up with the bolt.
    - toomuchtodo 3y ago
      https://www.recurrentauto.com/research/how-long-do-ev-batteries-last https://www.recurrentauto.com/research/how-long-do-ev-batter... https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/advice/how-long-do-ev-batteries-last https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/advice/how-long-do-ev-ba...
      - Spivak 3y ago
        From your own link: > In general, you can expect the lifespan of an EV's battery pack to be at least 10 years or 100,000 miles. Most will go much longer and further if you treat them right. So I get what you're saying but when you're going to drive a car that will spend most of its life under your care at >100k miles the calculus gets a little different. And I really get the impression on HN that people are just unaware of how many people are driving old high mileage cars. My friends who would self describe as upper-middle class are driving a 2012 Impreza and a 2014 Civic.
        deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
- chiefalchemist 3y ago
  Best of both worlds? Not for the taxpayers. Why waste resources manipulating the market when the force you need is already there? Free. As it is, it's unnecessary gov bloat and politicians buying your vote *with your money*. That's exactly what's happening. It's not a good thing in any world. Yes there's a lack of moderately priced EVs, but not limited to EV. Cars are big and expensive for a reason. They sell. There are plenty of non-EV vehicles in the EV price range that continue to be made and bought. Why? Gas. Is. Cheap.

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Workaccount2 3y ago

Society on the whole votes for people who say they will lick the wound.

Spivak 3y ago

I'm not sure why you don't see this as a best of both worlds situation. It encourages EV adoption by dangling a carrot instead of using a stick. The unfortunate reality is that EVs are still unaffordable for most people and don't seem on track to ever reach the <$15k car buyer. And it doesn't seem like EV By US standards I'm extremely well off and I've never even considered buying a $30k car which is the cheapest EV you can buy right now. You won't do anything to encourage EV adoption by making gas more expensive because the people who are the most price sensitive to gas can't make the switch and the people who aren't won't care and have to be convinced in some other way. You're just making most drivers worse off and getting nothing in return.

toomuchtodo 3y ago
These are the cheapest cars you can buy new in the US as of this comment. None are sub $15k. Average new car price is ~$48k. I'm sure that is dragged up by ~$100k vehicles, but this idea you're going to get a new car for under $15k is not grounded in reality based on current market conditions. That market will solely be served by the used car market. 2023 Mitsubishi Mirage ES: $17,650 | 2023 Kia Rio LX: $17,875 | 2023 Nissan Versa S: $18,595 | 2023 Kia Forte LX: $20,815 | 2023 Hyundai Venue SE: $20,985 | 2023 Nissan Sentra S: $21,145 | 2023 Kia Soul LX: $21,215 | 2024 Chevrolet Trax LS: $21,495 | 2023 Hyundai Elantra SE: $22,065 | 2023 Subaru Impreza: $22,115
- Spivak 3y ago
  Right, the $15k car buyer is buying used and the used EV story is complicated depending on what price point you need to hit because you'll be close to the battery warranty running out (if you're not in CA) and that replacement will be almost the cost of the whole car. It's really hard to compete with the "buy a mass-market ICE Honda/Toyota at 60-80k and drive it to 250k." At any other time I would argue that it's probably a wash or in favor of the EV with repairs but they're so reliable that you're hard pressed to have your first major issue sub 200k. Edit: Ya know I just went searching in my area and you get get some 30k mile 2020+ Bolts in the $15k price point. But I'm also a little suspicious because literally any other EV at that mileage is more than double so I want to know what's up with the bolt.
  - toomuchtodo 3y ago
    https://www.recurrentauto.com/research/how-long-do-ev-batteries-last https://www.recurrentauto.com/research/how-long-do-ev-batter... https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/advice/how-long-do-ev-batteries-last https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/advice/how-long-do-ev-ba...
    - Spivak 3y ago
      From your own link: > In general, you can expect the lifespan of an EV's battery pack to be at least 10 years or 100,000 miles. Most will go much longer and further if you treat them right. So I get what you're saying but when you're going to drive a car that will spend most of its life under your care at >100k miles the calculus gets a little different. And I really get the impression on HN that people are just unaware of how many people are driving old high mileage cars. My friends who would self describe as upper-middle class are driving a 2012 Impreza and a 2014 Civic.
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
chiefalchemist 3y ago
Best of both worlds? Not for the taxpayers. Why waste resources manipulating the market when the force you need is already there? Free. As it is, it's unnecessary gov bloat and politicians buying your vote *with your money*. That's exactly what's happening. It's not a good thing in any world. Yes there's a lack of moderately priced EVs, but not limited to EV. Cars are big and expensive for a reason. They sell. There are plenty of non-EV vehicles in the EV price range that continue to be made and bought. Why? Gas. Is. Cheap.