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Have you ever worked a 12 hour shift? Ever worked 4 10s? You know how you’re mentally checked out of a job after 4 to 6 hours? That doesn’t get better after

Have you ever worked a 12 hour shift? Ever worked 4 10s? You know how you’re mentally checked out of a job after 4 to 6 hours? That doesn’t get better after 8. A 12 hour shift means you’re in a bit of a mental fog half the day.

AnthonyMouse 3y ago
It depends what kind of work it is, and what kind of shape you're in. Some people have more endurance than others. If you're not capable of doing some work, you can do other work; that's no reason to say that someone who is capable of it should be deprived of the income.
- askonomm 3y ago
  So because someone can take more of a beating than I can, it makes it somehow okay?
  - AnthonyMouse 3y ago
    If someone is capable of doing work, and wants to because they'd make more money, what right do you have to prohibit them from doing it just because you can't?
- gopher_space 3y ago
  What kind of work are you imagining where there's no brainwork involved and no danger to the project or other employees if a tired worker makes mistakes? I think you're operating on too many hypotheticals and not quite enough personal experience.
  - AnthonyMouse 3y ago
    Many types of manufacturing. If you're making e.g. textiles, and being tired means you occasionally produce something that gets tossed out by quality control, this is not obviously a danger to anyone so it's just a cost trade off in wasted material vs. benefits of operating the factory for longer hours. Many types of emergency response or on-call work. You just got off an 8 hour shift when an emergency happens. The cost of mistakes you make from being tired can be less than the cost of waiting 16 hours before responding to the emergency or leaving it to someone unqualified. Generically anything where the cost of occasional mistakes is low or they can be detected before they have a major impact. But also, the point is that different people have different levels of endurance. Some people will be making more mistakes after 6 hours than someone else would be making after 12.
    - gopher_space 3y ago
      > Many types of manufacturing. If you're making e.g. textiles, and being tired means you occasionally produce something that gets tossed out by quality control, this is not obviously a danger to anyone so it's just a cost trade off in wasted material vs. benefits of operating the factory for longer hours. Do you have any idea how much those machines cost, how easy it is to destroy them, or how quickly they'll remove the skin from your body? If some exhausted bonehead crashes a line how long will it take for repairs? Do you have spare parts on hand? Do they still make spares? > Many types of emergency response or on-call work. You just got off an 8 hour shift when an emergency happens. That's not a 12 hour shift, that's an 8 hour shift moving into triple overtime. Everyone involved in your scenario is fully aware that they're rolling the dice on people's lives due to an emergency. > But also, the point is that different people have different levels of endurance. Some people will be making more mistakes after 6 hours than someone else would be making after 12. I'm assuming everyone has the same level of endurance because I'm not willing to gamble my livelihood on the self-awareness of some random asshole off the street. It doesn't matter how much they want to work if their output isn't making us money.
      - AnthonyMouse 3y ago
        > Do you have any idea how much those machines cost, how easy it is to destroy them, or how quickly they'll remove the skin from your body? If some exhausted bonehead crashes a line how long will it take for repairs? Do you have spare parts on hand? Do they still make spares? Sewing machines? Not that expensive, not that easy to destroy and the typical injury would be that you get stuck with a sewing needle. It seems like you want to assume that every job involves some kind of delicate yet fatality-inducing industrial equipment. It doesn't. > That's not a 12 hour shift, that's an 8 hour shift moving into triple overtime. Everyone involved in your scenario is fully aware that they're rolling the dice on people's lives due to an emergency. It's a person working for 12 contiguous hours, because the benefits outweigh the costs. > I'm assuming everyone has the same level of endurance because I'm not willing to gamble my livelihood on the self-awareness of some random asshole off the street. It doesn't matter how much they want to work if their output isn't making us money. And if they're willing to work and the output is making you money? The proposal is to ban people from working for more than 8 hours. You don't need a law for any of the cases where it isn't in the employer's interests to do it anyway. They just won't choose to do it in those cases then.
- seanhunter 3y ago
  While young and in as good shape as I ever have been I once worked a low-wage manufacturing job in a factory. After a long shift I once sliced through my fingernail[1] because I fell asleep while operating an industrial bench saw. At the time (before this incident) I would certainly have said that I had plenty of endurance to work long hours in the job and I definitely needed the money. Worker protections exist partly to prevent low-wage earners from having their economic desperation exploited by the unscrupulous to their detriment. [1] It's only through a pure miracle that I didn't lose a finger. The specific miracle being I was so tired setting up the saw that this one time I set the depth of cut wrong meaning that instead of chopping my fingers completely off as would have happened had I set the saw up correctly, it just sliced through the very top of my fingernail.
  - AnthonyMouse 3y ago
    > Worker protections exist partly to prevent low-wage earners from having their economic desperation exploited by the unscrupulous to their detriment. "Worker protections" exist mainly because people misunderstand the causes and solutions to economic desperation. How does it benefit you to have to take a second job and work 16 hours a day instead of allowing your first employer to give you overtime that you actually want? Would you have been less tired by adding a second commute to your day?

AnthonyMouse 3y ago

It depends what kind of work it is, and what kind of shape you're in. Some people have more endurance than others. If you're not capable of doing some work, you can do other work; that's no reason to say that someone who is capable of it should be deprived of the income.

askonomm 3y ago
So because someone can take more of a beating than I can, it makes it somehow okay?
- AnthonyMouse 3y ago
  If someone is capable of doing work, and wants to because they'd make more money, what right do you have to prohibit them from doing it just because you can't?
gopher_space 3y ago
What kind of work are you imagining where there's no brainwork involved and no danger to the project or other employees if a tired worker makes mistakes? I think you're operating on too many hypotheticals and not quite enough personal experience.
- AnthonyMouse 3y ago
  Many types of manufacturing. If you're making e.g. textiles, and being tired means you occasionally produce something that gets tossed out by quality control, this is not obviously a danger to anyone so it's just a cost trade off in wasted material vs. benefits of operating the factory for longer hours. Many types of emergency response or on-call work. You just got off an 8 hour shift when an emergency happens. The cost of mistakes you make from being tired can be less than the cost of waiting 16 hours before responding to the emergency or leaving it to someone unqualified. Generically anything where the cost of occasional mistakes is low or they can be detected before they have a major impact. But also, the point is that different people have different levels of endurance. Some people will be making more mistakes after 6 hours than someone else would be making after 12.
  - gopher_space 3y ago
    > Many types of manufacturing. If you're making e.g. textiles, and being tired means you occasionally produce something that gets tossed out by quality control, this is not obviously a danger to anyone so it's just a cost trade off in wasted material vs. benefits of operating the factory for longer hours. Do you have any idea how much those machines cost, how easy it is to destroy them, or how quickly they'll remove the skin from your body? If some exhausted bonehead crashes a line how long will it take for repairs? Do you have spare parts on hand? Do they still make spares? > Many types of emergency response or on-call work. You just got off an 8 hour shift when an emergency happens. That's not a 12 hour shift, that's an 8 hour shift moving into triple overtime. Everyone involved in your scenario is fully aware that they're rolling the dice on people's lives due to an emergency. > But also, the point is that different people have different levels of endurance. Some people will be making more mistakes after 6 hours than someone else would be making after 12. I'm assuming everyone has the same level of endurance because I'm not willing to gamble my livelihood on the self-awareness of some random asshole off the street. It doesn't matter how much they want to work if their output isn't making us money.
    - AnthonyMouse 3y ago
      > Do you have any idea how much those machines cost, how easy it is to destroy them, or how quickly they'll remove the skin from your body? If some exhausted bonehead crashes a line how long will it take for repairs? Do you have spare parts on hand? Do they still make spares? Sewing machines? Not that expensive, not that easy to destroy and the typical injury would be that you get stuck with a sewing needle. It seems like you want to assume that every job involves some kind of delicate yet fatality-inducing industrial equipment. It doesn't. > That's not a 12 hour shift, that's an 8 hour shift moving into triple overtime. Everyone involved in your scenario is fully aware that they're rolling the dice on people's lives due to an emergency. It's a person working for 12 contiguous hours, because the benefits outweigh the costs. > I'm assuming everyone has the same level of endurance because I'm not willing to gamble my livelihood on the self-awareness of some random asshole off the street. It doesn't matter how much they want to work if their output isn't making us money. And if they're willing to work and the output is making you money? The proposal is to ban people from working for more than 8 hours. You don't need a law for any of the cases where it isn't in the employer's interests to do it anyway. They just won't choose to do it in those cases then.
seanhunter 3y ago
While young and in as good shape as I ever have been I once worked a low-wage manufacturing job in a factory. After a long shift I once sliced through my fingernail[1] because I fell asleep while operating an industrial bench saw. At the time (before this incident) I would certainly have said that I had plenty of endurance to work long hours in the job and I definitely needed the money. Worker protections exist partly to prevent low-wage earners from having their economic desperation exploited by the unscrupulous to their detriment. [1] It's only through a pure miracle that I didn't lose a finger. The specific miracle being I was so tired setting up the saw that this one time I set the depth of cut wrong meaning that instead of chopping my fingers completely off as would have happened had I set the saw up correctly, it just sliced through the very top of my fingernail.
- AnthonyMouse 3y ago
  > Worker protections exist partly to prevent low-wage earners from having their economic desperation exploited by the unscrupulous to their detriment. "Worker protections" exist mainly because people misunderstand the causes and solutions to economic desperation. How does it benefit you to have to take a second job and work 16 hours a day instead of allowing your first employer to give you overtime that you actually want? Would you have been less tired by adding a second commute to your day?