3 ms·

> You might also be interested in SCTP[1] from the year 2000, which also hasn't gotten any traction so far. Probably partly because middleware boxes (e.g., fir

> You might also be interested in SCTP[1] from the year 2000, which also hasn't gotten any traction so far. Probably partly because middleware boxes (e.g., firewalls) either didn't/don't support it and/or rules were written to only support "TCP" (as opposed to 'stream') or "UDP" (as opposed to 'dgram'; see also "DCCP").

fragmede 2y ago
The protocol is specified by a byte in the IP packet; how many middleware boxes block everything except for ICMP, TCP, and UDP? What is the probability that a packet with that byte set to something unexpected actually gets from source to destination?
- znpy 2y ago
  The “funny” thing is that http3 really really looks like a transport protocol encapsulated into… uso. Exactly because many middle boxes block anything that’s not a very well known protocol
  - n_plus_1_acc 2y ago
    The internet is just broken and only works because of lot of hacked bandaids.
- Hikikomori 2y ago
  How does sctp work with NAT that your typical home box uses?
  - lttlrck 2y ago
    SCTP can run over UDP. It's part of the spec. Now we have HTTP3 which runs over UDP - where there is a will, there is a way. Perhaps SCTP was ahead of its time.
    - throw0101c 2y ago
      > SCTP can run over UDP. It's part of the spec. SCTP over UDP came out in 2013: * https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc6951 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc6951 SCTP came out in 2000: * https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc2960 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc2960 Over a decade is quite a while in Internet-time.
- throw0101c 2y ago
  > The protocol is specified by a byte in the IP packet; how many middleware boxes block everything except for ICMP, TCP, and UDP? Most firewalls are default deny out of the box and you have to allow things through. How many folks bother opening up SCTP/DCCP/etc?
o11c 2y ago
Certainly that's a part, but it didn't help that SCTP has some fundamental low-level flaws. Given that TCP also has at least one unfixable flaw, the only recommendation I can make is to use something UDP-based - which, to make sure you don't stomp on everybody else's traffic, means use the only popular one: QUIC (the layer beneath HTTP/3).

fragmede 2y ago

The protocol is specified by a byte in the IP packet; how many middleware boxes block everything except for ICMP, TCP, and UDP? What is the probability that a packet with that byte set to something unexpected actually gets from source to destination?

znpy 2y ago
The “funny” thing is that http3 really really looks like a transport protocol encapsulated into… uso. Exactly because many middle boxes block anything that’s not a very well known protocol
- n_plus_1_acc 2y ago
  The internet is just broken and only works because of lot of hacked bandaids.
Hikikomori 2y ago
How does sctp work with NAT that your typical home box uses?
- lttlrck 2y ago
  SCTP can run over UDP. It's part of the spec. Now we have HTTP3 which runs over UDP - where there is a will, there is a way. Perhaps SCTP was ahead of its time.
  - throw0101c 2y ago
    > SCTP can run over UDP. It's part of the spec. SCTP over UDP came out in 2013: * https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc6951 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc6951 SCTP came out in 2000: * https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc2960 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc2960 Over a decade is quite a while in Internet-time.
throw0101c 2y ago
> The protocol is specified by a byte in the IP packet; how many middleware boxes block everything except for ICMP, TCP, and UDP? Most firewalls are default deny out of the box and you have to allow things through. How many folks bother opening up SCTP/DCCP/etc?

o11c 2y ago

Certainly that's a part, but it didn't help that SCTP has some fundamental low-level flaws. Given that TCP also has at least one unfixable flaw, the only recommendation I can make is to use something UDP-based - which, to make sure you don't stomp on everybody else's traffic, means use the only popular one: QUIC (the layer beneath HTTP/3).