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> I've heard about MPTCP back in 2013. > I assumed it's going to get adopted in no time due to how much of a ux improvement it would have been back in the day.

> I've heard about MPTCP back in 2013. > I assumed it's going to get adopted in no time due to how much of a ux improvement it would have been back in the day. You might also be interested in SCTP[1] from the year 2000, which also hasn't gotten any traction so far. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stream_Control_Transmission_Protocol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stream_Control_Transmission_Pr...

gamegod 3y ago
WebRTC data channels use SCTP, which ain't nothing! https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc8831 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc8831 (SCTP over DTLS, that is...)
fanf2 3y ago
SCTP is used a lot inside telco networks for carrying switching control metadata for voice connections. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIGTRAN https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIGTRAN
throw0101b 3y ago
> You might also be interested in SCTP[1] from the year 2000, which also hasn't gotten any traction so far. Probably partly because middleware boxes (e.g., firewalls) either didn't/don't support it and/or rules were written to only support "TCP" (as opposed to 'stream') or "UDP" (as opposed to 'dgram'; see also "DCCP").
- fragmede 3y ago
  The protocol is specified by a byte in the IP packet; how many middleware boxes block everything except for ICMP, TCP, and UDP? What is the probability that a packet with that byte set to something unexpected actually gets from source to destination?
  - znpy 3y ago
    The “funny” thing is that http3 really really looks like a transport protocol encapsulated into… uso. Exactly because many middle boxes block anything that’s not a very well known protocol
    - n_plus_1_acc 3y ago
      The internet is just broken and only works because of lot of hacked bandaids.
  - Hikikomori 3y ago
    How does sctp work with NAT that your typical home box uses?
    - lttlrck 3y ago
      SCTP can run over UDP. It's part of the spec. Now we have HTTP3 which runs over UDP - where there is a will, there is a way. Perhaps SCTP was ahead of its time.
      - throw0101c 3y ago
        > SCTP can run over UDP. It's part of the spec. SCTP over UDP came out in 2013: * https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc6951 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc6951 SCTP came out in 2000: * https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc2960 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc2960 Over a decade is quite a while in Internet-time.
  - throw0101c 3y ago
    > The protocol is specified by a byte in the IP packet; how many middleware boxes block everything except for ICMP, TCP, and UDP? Most firewalls are default deny out of the box and you have to allow things through. How many folks bother opening up SCTP/DCCP/etc?
- o11c 3y ago
  Certainly that's a part, but it didn't help that SCTP has some fundamental low-level flaws. Given that TCP also has at least one unfixable flaw, the only recommendation I can make is to use something UDP-based - which, to make sure you don't stomp on everybody else's traffic, means use the only popular one: QUIC (the layer beneath HTTP/3).

gamegod 3y ago

WebRTC data channels use SCTP, which ain't nothing! https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc8831 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc8831 (SCTP over DTLS, that is...)

fanf2 3y ago

SCTP is used a lot inside telco networks for carrying switching control metadata for voice connections. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIGTRAN https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIGTRAN

throw0101b 3y ago

> You might also be interested in SCTP[1] from the year 2000, which also hasn't gotten any traction so far. Probably partly because middleware boxes (e.g., firewalls) either didn't/don't support it and/or rules were written to only support "TCP" (as opposed to 'stream') or "UDP" (as opposed to 'dgram'; see also "DCCP").

fragmede 3y ago
The protocol is specified by a byte in the IP packet; how many middleware boxes block everything except for ICMP, TCP, and UDP? What is the probability that a packet with that byte set to something unexpected actually gets from source to destination?
- znpy 3y ago
  The “funny” thing is that http3 really really looks like a transport protocol encapsulated into… uso. Exactly because many middle boxes block anything that’s not a very well known protocol
  - n_plus_1_acc 3y ago
    The internet is just broken and only works because of lot of hacked bandaids.
- Hikikomori 3y ago
  How does sctp work with NAT that your typical home box uses?
  - lttlrck 3y ago
    SCTP can run over UDP. It's part of the spec. Now we have HTTP3 which runs over UDP - where there is a will, there is a way. Perhaps SCTP was ahead of its time.
    - throw0101c 3y ago
      > SCTP can run over UDP. It's part of the spec. SCTP over UDP came out in 2013: * https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc6951 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc6951 SCTP came out in 2000: * https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc2960 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc2960 Over a decade is quite a while in Internet-time.
- throw0101c 3y ago
  > The protocol is specified by a byte in the IP packet; how many middleware boxes block everything except for ICMP, TCP, and UDP? Most firewalls are default deny out of the box and you have to allow things through. How many folks bother opening up SCTP/DCCP/etc?
o11c 3y ago
Certainly that's a part, but it didn't help that SCTP has some fundamental low-level flaws. Given that TCP also has at least one unfixable flaw, the only recommendation I can make is to use something UDP-based - which, to make sure you don't stomp on everybody else's traffic, means use the only popular one: QUIC (the layer beneath HTTP/3).