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> Along with Hofstadter, his ideas were foundational to hacker culture. Dennett was an influential thinker, probably more so than Hofstadter overall, but I can

> Along with Hofstadter, his ideas were foundational to hacker culture. Dennett was an influential thinker, probably more so than Hofstadter overall, but I can't agree with this assessment. For one thing, he became widely known after Consciousness Explained, in 1992, which is simply too late to be foundational to hacker culture, which was well and truly founded by then. I won't broaden my case here, lest anything I say be interpreted as speaking ill of the dead. I'm certain he was a major influence for many who post here, yourself included, and I don't intend to detract from that.

PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
Maybe you discovered Dennett after 1992, but he was a well-known and widely published philosopher long before. "Elbow Room: the varieties of free will worth wanting" was a landmark work and was published in 1984. "The Minds I" (w/Hofstadter) was, relatively speaking, a hugely popular work published in 1981. In 1993, the cover of "Dennett and his critics" began > Daniel Dennett is arguably one of the most influential yet radical philosophers in America today. Doesn't sound much like someone who "became widely known" after a book published in 1992.
- ska 3y ago
  You both have a point. Hacker culture was well established by the 70s, so still a decade before Dennett's earlier works. I do think its true that some of his work has resonated with many people who also resonate with "hacker culture".
  - PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
    Hacker culture was not well established by the 70s, simply because so few people worked with computers in that decade. You can certainly trace its roots back to at least 1970, but it really did not become established then. What most people identify as "hacker culture" today arose in tandem with (a) relatively affordable "personal" computers (b) modem-based communication. The rise of these two things is more or less entirely cotemporal with the most productive phase of Dennett's career.
    - biofox 3y ago
      I'd argue hacker culture goes back much further than the 70s, e.g., with MIT hacks during the 1930s and 40s (see Feynman) and in Cambridge UK, as well as the early HAM radio enthusiasts in the 1900s...
      - PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
        There are certainly antecedents and ancestors for hacker culture long before the 1970s, but in the post I was replying to, the term used was "hacker culture was established", and I would argue that none of these early anticipatory elements represented the "establishment" of a new culture.
        Retric 3y ago
        It’s the same culture made by the same people entering and leaving across that full period. Hacker culture is really a continuation of the same ad hock machinist culture dating back to the Industrial Revolution. It jumped to computers from the days of analog computers. You can trace things flowing all over the place with say MIT’s Tech Model Railroad Club being often sited as an early example. But it’s really just refinements of the same basic culture, and computers is one of the few places it survived unlike say pinball.
        beacon294 3y ago
        I think about this a lot with reference to the mechanics institute in San Francisco. Who were these mechanics and why did they have a 4 story institute still home to a chess club and private library? Certainly not a direct crossover to a modern car mechanic, even a "hacker" type car mechanic wouldn't stereotypically also be thinking along the philosophy of hacker culture, although I am sure some do.
    - samatman 3y ago
      The book Hackers was first published in 1984 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hackers:_Heroes_of_the_Computer_Revolution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hackers:_Heroes_of_the_Compute... Jargon file was published as The Hacker's Dictionary in 1983 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jargon_File https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jargon_File I consider this definitive evidence that the foundational period of hacker culture was before these books were published. I'm not sure what the point of trying to shift that period forward so as to include Dennett's works is. It's neither true nor necessary.
Upvoter33 3y ago
Agree. Dude was a consequential philosopher but had little to do w hacker culture.

PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago

Maybe you discovered Dennett after 1992, but he was a well-known and widely published philosopher long before. "Elbow Room: the varieties of free will worth wanting" was a landmark work and was published in 1984. "The Minds I" (w/Hofstadter) was, relatively speaking, a hugely popular work published in 1981. In 1993, the cover of "Dennett and his critics" began > Daniel Dennett is arguably one of the most influential yet radical philosophers in America today. Doesn't sound much like someone who "became widely known" after a book published in 1992.

ska 3y ago
You both have a point. Hacker culture was well established by the 70s, so still a decade before Dennett's earlier works. I do think its true that some of his work has resonated with many people who also resonate with "hacker culture".
- PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
  Hacker culture was not well established by the 70s, simply because so few people worked with computers in that decade. You can certainly trace its roots back to at least 1970, but it really did not become established then. What most people identify as "hacker culture" today arose in tandem with (a) relatively affordable "personal" computers (b) modem-based communication. The rise of these two things is more or less entirely cotemporal with the most productive phase of Dennett's career.
  - biofox 3y ago
    I'd argue hacker culture goes back much further than the 70s, e.g., with MIT hacks during the 1930s and 40s (see Feynman) and in Cambridge UK, as well as the early HAM radio enthusiasts in the 1900s...
    - PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
      There are certainly antecedents and ancestors for hacker culture long before the 1970s, but in the post I was replying to, the term used was "hacker culture was established", and I would argue that none of these early anticipatory elements represented the "establishment" of a new culture.
      - Retric 3y ago
        It’s the same culture made by the same people entering and leaving across that full period. Hacker culture is really a continuation of the same ad hock machinist culture dating back to the Industrial Revolution. It jumped to computers from the days of analog computers. You can trace things flowing all over the place with say MIT’s Tech Model Railroad Club being often sited as an early example. But it’s really just refinements of the same basic culture, and computers is one of the few places it survived unlike say pinball.
        beacon294 3y ago
        I think about this a lot with reference to the mechanics institute in San Francisco. Who were these mechanics and why did they have a 4 story institute still home to a chess club and private library? Certainly not a direct crossover to a modern car mechanic, even a "hacker" type car mechanic wouldn't stereotypically also be thinking along the philosophy of hacker culture, although I am sure some do.
  - samatman 3y ago
    The book Hackers was first published in 1984 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hackers:_Heroes_of_the_Computer_Revolution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hackers:_Heroes_of_the_Compute... Jargon file was published as The Hacker's Dictionary in 1983 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jargon_File https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jargon_File I consider this definitive evidence that the foundational period of hacker culture was before these books were published. I'm not sure what the point of trying to shift that period forward so as to include Dennett's works is. It's neither true nor necessary.

Upvoter33 3y ago

Agree. Dude was a consequential philosopher but had little to do w hacker culture.