4 ms·

Wait, so in another words, if a bunch of people from come on over from Europe, set themselves up in an aggressive manner, proceed to kick out Palestinians, and

Wait, so in another words, if a bunch of people from come on over from Europe, set themselves up in an aggressive manner, proceed to kick out Palestinians, and then also say that hey all Jews that still live outside of Israel are welcome to come, you are surprised that local Arab populations don't feel super happy about that? What exactly did you expect would happen? You know that 12 Million Germans got kicked out post-WW2 out of the entirety of Eastern Europe for an analogous reason? I say this as a Red Town Juhuri, some of the arguments used by Ashkenazis/Sephardics are beyond insane. Your original comment(to the GP) that you since edited literally suggests that the Holocaust(done by Europeans) gives Israel the right to do whatever the fuck it wants to protect "the last stand of Judaism".

woodruffw 2y ago
I don’t think Israel has carte blanche to do whatever it wants. I think the point of GP’s comment is that the situation is substantially more complicated than the settler-colonial framing (although it does include settlers and political Zionists who have repeatedly ignored international law). Concretely, Israel is the product of (1) both political and religious Zionist movements, (2) a massive refuge movement by Jews who could no longer live in Europe, (3) a similarly sized refugee movement of Sephardim and Mizrahim from the Middle East, and (4) people (both Muslim and Jewish) already living in the borders of Israel. These divisions deserve consideration for the same reason that the Palestinian people do not deserve collective punishment or blanket association with terror by Israel and its military. (This is my viewpoint as a non-Zionist American Jew.)
- sevagh 2y ago
  >(2) a massive refuge movement by Jews who could no longer live in Europe This one is a head-scratcher. Europe, European crimes, European antisemitism, European pogroms, Europe Europe Europe. Also European double-dealing of the mandate of Palestine after Lawrence of Arabia, Sykes-Picot, all of that stuff. Seems like Europe is the problem here.
  - woodruffw 2y ago
    A lot of the Middle East’s problems can be identified with European meddling (and domestic atrocities), yes. But that meddling is not a necessary or sufficient condition (there’s plenty of ancient religious and ethnic hate, irredentism, etc. to go around).
- mamonster 2y ago
  >I think the point of GP’s comment is that the situation is substantially more complicated than the settler-colonial framing Did you read his original comment? He was talking about how the Jews got chased out of their homeland by a "pedophile warlord" and how Jews have to make a last stand for Judaism. If they weren't both dead, it might as well have come from Baruch Goldstein or Meir Kahane themselves. I don't disagree with anything you say, but if you look at his own numbers of Jews that had to flee Muslim countries after the establishment of Israel they are in the ballpark of what Palestinians went through with the Nakba. There were a lot of massive ethnic cleansings and deportation events post-WW2 based on the "ethnostates are good" / "minorities are the fifth column" ideas that were all fucked up and Sephardi/Mizrahi don't have a privilege in saying theirs was uniquely evil.
  - woodruffw 2y ago
    I think maybe we’re talking about different comments, or it was edited. The one I’m referring to is this one: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40089785 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40089785 (If it was edited away from what you’ve said, then I’m not going to defend the original comment. And I agree that what happened to middle eastern Jews is not uniquely evil; only that it ought to color our understanding of the overall situation.)

woodruffw 2y ago

I don’t think Israel has carte blanche to do whatever it wants. I think the point of GP’s comment is that the situation is substantially more complicated than the settler-colonial framing (although it does include settlers and political Zionists who have repeatedly ignored international law). Concretely, Israel is the product of (1) both political and religious Zionist movements, (2) a massive refuge movement by Jews who could no longer live in Europe, (3) a similarly sized refugee movement of Sephardim and Mizrahim from the Middle East, and (4) people (both Muslim and Jewish) already living in the borders of Israel. These divisions deserve consideration for the same reason that the Palestinian people do not deserve collective punishment or blanket association with terror by Israel and its military. (This is my viewpoint as a non-Zionist American Jew.)

sevagh 2y ago
>(2) a massive refuge movement by Jews who could no longer live in Europe This one is a head-scratcher. Europe, European crimes, European antisemitism, European pogroms, Europe Europe Europe. Also European double-dealing of the mandate of Palestine after Lawrence of Arabia, Sykes-Picot, all of that stuff. Seems like Europe is the problem here.
- woodruffw 2y ago
  A lot of the Middle East’s problems can be identified with European meddling (and domestic atrocities), yes. But that meddling is not a necessary or sufficient condition (there’s plenty of ancient religious and ethnic hate, irredentism, etc. to go around).
mamonster 2y ago
>I think the point of GP’s comment is that the situation is substantially more complicated than the settler-colonial framing Did you read his original comment? He was talking about how the Jews got chased out of their homeland by a "pedophile warlord" and how Jews have to make a last stand for Judaism. If they weren't both dead, it might as well have come from Baruch Goldstein or Meir Kahane themselves. I don't disagree with anything you say, but if you look at his own numbers of Jews that had to flee Muslim countries after the establishment of Israel they are in the ballpark of what Palestinians went through with the Nakba. There were a lot of massive ethnic cleansings and deportation events post-WW2 based on the "ethnostates are good" / "minorities are the fifth column" ideas that were all fucked up and Sephardi/Mizrahi don't have a privilege in saying theirs was uniquely evil.
- woodruffw 2y ago
  I think maybe we’re talking about different comments, or it was edited. The one I’m referring to is this one: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40089785 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40089785 (If it was edited away from what you’ve said, then I’m not going to defend the original comment. And I agree that what happened to middle eastern Jews is not uniquely evil; only that it ought to color our understanding of the overall situation.)