7 ms·

Tipping doesn't make any sense

yashchandra 14y ago
The norm in US is average 15% which could be considered high in other countries. I have lived in 3 countries including US. The only sense I could make out of it is the fact that labor is considered premium in the US (not talking about cost here since that is debatable in 2012). I personally do not mind tipping well (read 20-25%) but I find it disturbing that a waiter gives me attitude, shitty service, forgets to bring straw for the drink and then expects a tip since it is the norm. My wife and I have a joke. Every time a waiter screws up, we deduct 1% from the norm. Every time a waiter does something extra (like being nice, on time, no order screw-ups), we add 1% to the norm.
- stefanobernardi 14y ago
  That's an interesting system. Do you think that having a 15% base is normal/right?
  - yashchandra 14y ago
    Depends. If the service is good, I am fine with 15% base. But I am not fine if I get bad service.
    - nextparadigms 14y ago
      Will you still tip if the service was bad/not adequate? Personally, I don't get tipping either. Aren't they supposed to do their job well in the first place? This probably leads to only having them treat you badly next time if you don't tip them well or at all the first time.
      - 18pfsmt 14y ago
        In the US, a waiter or waitress typically gets paid $2.15/ hour, so hopefully you will take that into consideration.
        dfxm12 14y ago
        I'm not totally sure this is true since I made more per hour as a bus boy when I was in high school. Either way, you shouldn't take this into consideration. If a server decides to (or is desperate enough to) take such a raw deal, that's on them. Their time can certainly be spent better than hoping customers can subsidize their salary. They'd probably do just as well begging on the corner (begging for tips is still begging just the same). Take into consideration how well the person is serving you.
        masklinn 14y ago
        > I'm not totally sure this is true Depends on the state you're in, $2.15 is the federal minimum for tipped staff (and the employer is supposed to match standard (non-tipped) federal minimum wage if tips don't bring staff over) but many states have their own labor laws going beyond federal standards. For instance NH has a $3.27 tipped minimum wage (and a federal minimum wage), Washington State has a single minimum wage (no tipped staff exception) of $9.04.
  - astrodust 14y ago
    That's typical in most parts, but New York is moving towards 20% being the norm. Maybe it'll be 25% for crappy service, 50% for decent treatment in the future if it keeps escalating.
- tomp 14y ago
  When I was in the US, the norm was 10%. Anyone has a clue why the tip is raising faster than inflation?
- masklinn 14y ago
  > The norm in US is average 15% which could be considered high in other countries Infinitely so, as most countries either include staff remuneration in the bill or automatically add a service charge to the bill. Tips generally aren't expected in any western european country that I know, for instance. Exceptional service is sometimes rewarded, but beyond that there is no tipping apart from people leaving the change "on the table" (because they can't be arsed)
stefanobernardi 14y ago
I'd love to hear from the HN community reasons that make this one a good system, and hope to not generate too much of a religious war.
- raganwald 14y ago
  You ask reasonable questions, the problem (like anything else involving disrupting an existing practice) is implementing it. You can’t just go around not tipping, in the hopes that decent waiters will start demanding higher wages from their employers. I mean, you can, and you’ll save some money, but you won’t change the system by yourself. Also, your objection to paying a percentage of the bill is not the strongest point in the article. It’s true that Fedex charge me the same money to deliver an envelope containing a contract worth $10,000 as they do to deliver a birthday card worth $5. They would probably love to charge me more for the contract, that would help them with price discrimination. But since they can’t peek at the contents of the envelope, they try to find a proxy for value in the form of speed of delivery. Rush service costs more, ostensibly because the sooner you need it, the more valuable it is and the more you’re willing to pay. Sometimes, that’s way off like with a birthday card you’re trying to get delivered in time for a birthday, but on the whole the system is good enough. Likewise with tipping. Forget about trying to value the service by the cost to deliver it. The system is trying to charge you what you can afford, and the amount you spend on the food is close enough to make things work out most of the time. The entire system is sitting in a local maximum that’s good enough for most purposes. If you try to deviate a little, you’ll end up with worse outcomes for everyone. You need a dramatic and disruptive change to the entire thing to move it to another local maximum. I encourage you to think of this as an exercise in startup business planning. Imagine there was a YC company that “fixed” the system. What product or service would it provide and how would it extract value from the current inefficiencies?
  - masklinn 14y ago
    > You ask reasonable questions, the problem (like anything else involving disrupting an existing practice) is implementing it. It really isn't that hard: remove "tipped staff" exceptions to US labor laws and everybody will adjust quite fast. > The entire system is sitting in a local maximum that’s good enough for most purposes. If you try to deviate a little, you’ll end up with worse outcomes for everyone. Do you really? That seems to be an assertion based on absolutely no foundations.
nextstep 14y ago
I don't know why, but this is a topic about which people often hold very strong views. I agree with the author, but I feel like this viewpoint is discouraged, at least in the US; tipping is mandatory, and it is considered rude not to tip. But, if tipping is mandatory, why not just advertise the real price? Take a cabe ride for example: I pay the driver to take me from point A to B. He (or she) completes this task, and I pay them. Very rarely do I feel like I have received exceptional service, and often the drivers are rude and impatient. But I have to tip at least 10-15% or I'm an asshole. Maybe we'd all receive better service if we stopped compulsory tipping, and instead only tipped when we receive good customer service.
- stefanobernardi 14y ago
  I'm all hears for a solution to this problem. I've been thinking about it and failing at it. The system is really ubiquitous at the moment.
  - glhaynes 14y ago
    Many regions of the world work just fine without tipping, so the difficulty would be in the transition. Have any cultures successfully made the transition from tipping to not-tipping? Seems like the only start toward doing so would be to force minimum wage standards to be applied to all workers. This would benefit some but cause significant hardships to some others, so it seems to me unlikely to be achievable.
    - kyt 14y ago
      What does 'just fine' mean? There is a large restaurant service disparity between the US and Europe.
    - twoodfin 14y ago
      Many regions of the world may "work just fine", but I'll put the service you'll get at an average priced sit down restaurant in an averaged sized city of the U.S. against a comparable establishment anywhere else on Earth. That's not to say there aren't friendly, competent staff everywhere, but at least my anecdotal experience has been that the U.S. and its tipping culture excels at providing good to excellent service on average. The chief advantage of tipping is that it encourages people who are skilled at providing customer service to stay in the industry and those who are not to leave. Other feedback mechanisms might be possible, but they'd be much more complex.
fishtoaster 14y ago
I'm not sure the comparison to other industries is apt- servers serve you, and the majority of the quality of their output comes directly from their personal interactions with you. Contrast this to, say, a programmer, where the majority of the quality of their output comes from their product- if the software they write is good, their interactions with the customer (if any) are not very important. Tips in serving and other interaction-heavy professions (doormen, barbers, delivery people) allow a much more immediate feedback loop for poor service than the traditional "If you suck, you'll get fired in a month or two" system. The reason there's a standard tip amount is because that gives people something to deduct from for particularly bad service. If the default were no tip, customers would have to fall back on the traditional feedback mechanisms (that are both slow and considerably more effort) like complaining the the manager. Personally, I'd say the biggest argument against tipping is that it tends to reflect many things that are largely outside the server's control: food quality, food preparation time, atmosphere, general dining experience.
- masklinn 14y ago
  > I'm not sure the comparison to other industries is apt- servers serve you, and the majority of the quality of their output comes directly from their personal interactions with you. So it is for your doctor or your cab driver. > Tips in serving and other interaction-heavy professions (doormen, barbers, delivery people) Are either reserved for beyond flawless service or are basically bribes.
  - fishtoaster 14y ago
    For my doctor, the primary measure of his quality is how good he is at medicine– that is, whether I get better or not. I'd prefer that he's nice and friendly, but curing my bronchitis is the more important aspect of our interaction. For a server, the interaction is the primary thing I care about.
    - masklinn 14y ago
      > For a server, the interaction is the primary thing I care about. Really? Why would you do that? My primary measure of a server's quality is how fast he brings my food and how absent he is when I have no need for him. So the primary thing I care about would really be how close he is to the minimum amount of interaction necessary for service.
kzahel 14y ago
I rarely tip. But when I do, I do it with just the tip
jasonshen 14y ago
There are a lot of strange practices that exist within society and there are probably good historical reasons for why tipping emerged in the United States. Perhaps it'd be better not to fuss over it and instead focus on changing things that really matter, rather than fighting arbitrary social norms that are inconsequential in the long run.
- jemka 14y ago
  Excuses. Excusing a wrong on any bases is a slippery slope which can lead to excuses for not "changing things that really matter". Change is the common denominator. Change is what people have issues with and create excuses not to do.
  - mertd 14y ago
    What is wrong with mentally adding 15% to everything on the menu?
    - jemka 14y ago
      The price listing is merely a consequence of the problem. It's moot.
FrankenTan 14y ago
It's my (uninformed and second-hand) impression that tipping-culture is often defined whether the waiters\servers are given minimum livable salary or whether the tip is the larger income.
Killswitch 14y ago
Love this article. I worked in the restaurant industry for 6 years, mainly as a cook, so I didn't get tipped as my wages were decent, but when I did exceptional service, I did receive a "Please give this to the cook" tip and it made me feel good. I normally tip, but at the same time, I hate that people feel they are mandatory to tip... No it's a reason for exceptional service, not "I served you food, you tip me". If you rely on your tips then look for a different job. If you make me feel obligated to tip you, I won't and it won't bother me either. That being said, I am really bad at tipping $10 for a $5 beer... :(
3pt14159 14y ago
Tipping would work better if people increased the tipping variance. When I have really shitty service => no tip. OK service 12% because anything less and I'm considered a jerk. Why isn't 5% standard for OK, but rushed service?
- Revisor 14y ago
  That's pretty much how it works in Central Europe, with the difference that 10% and more goes for great service.
wtvanhest 14y ago
I don't know about other Americans, but when I visit other countries I typically find the servers nice but slow and the overall quality of service much lower. When I was a server I would work hard to make sure I got every dollar. The tip is always on your mind, all night. The other good thing about tipping is that it also makes the job a sales job. The higher the bill, the higher the tip and therefore it properly aligns incentives with the restaurant. The exception to that is fraud where a server provides free items to attempt to get a larger tip. I get that it must be extremely irritating for people from outside the US to get a price and then have to do the math to figure out what it really costs, but that is a small price to pay for superior service all the time.
- GuiA 14y ago
  I'm European, and am used to not tipping— and I hate service in the US :) Waiters come bother you every 5 minute asking if everything ok, if they can refill your water, etc. I just like to enjoy my food and have conversation with my tablemates without being interrupted every 5 minute. In France, the waiter comes to take your order and give you your food, and that's it. You usually have a caraffe of water and a basket of bread on the table so that you don't have to wait on the waiter's good will to refill your glass. Additionally, in the US, you tend to be escorted out as soon as you're finished eating because the more tables the waiter serves, the more money he makes. This is extremely irritating— after I'm done eating, I like taking the time to talk with people and hangout without having the bill shoved in my face and the waiter asking us to leave (happened a few times). In France, you leave whenever you want to (unless the restaurant is extremely busy I assume, but it never happened to me). So no, I wouldn't call the service "superior"— rather more irritating and intrusive because that's the best way to get a good tip, while pretending to be superior.
  - raldi 14y ago
    It's subjective. Whichever standard you're used to, the opposite is irritating. As an example, when I (an American) visited France and Italy, I couldn't stand that it took 30+ minutes after finishing our meals to pay the bill and get out of there. But that's not really linked to tipping or the lack thereof; tipping's unusual in Japan, and yet they're the gold standard for getting out of a restaurant quickly once your meal is done.
sparknlaunch12 14y ago
Being European I have never understood the tipping culture. However the Brits (and other European countries) don't have a tipping culture but have a '12.5% service charge' at restaurants. I believe to avoid any ambiguity you simply have a all or nothing policy.
- shabble 14y ago
  If an establishment has a declared service rate, I'm much less likely to consider tipping in excess of that rate, even for service that would receive more from me elsewhere. If they've decided what they're worth, who am I to argue?
  - sparknlaunch12 14y ago
    I am torn between wanting transparency and simplicity. Transparency - I want to know what expenses make up the final price I pay. Simplicity - I just want to pay one single figure. This may explain the anger over airfares. People complained airfares cost too much. Then companies like Ryan Air broke down the costs. Then people got angry that the individual costs were unfair. Dammed if you do, dammed if you don't?
    - DanBC 14y ago
      Ryanair broke down the charges, but tended to have "FLY TO PARIS ONLY £9!!!" in huge type, with a list of additions in tiny type at the end of the ads.
aneth 14y ago
Regardless of anything else, it's wrong that servers are paid less per hour just because tips are common. This places an unfair burden on customers, and took tips from being part of a culture of discretionary generosity to being enshrined law. Since the tip is now required for the server to earn minimum wage, it is no longer a tip but a sort of marginally optional "fee." IMO, a 10% service charge without expectation of a tip makes much more sense and is much fairer. The entitlement culture in the service industry is so great that servers will angrily say things like "if you can't afford to tip on a bottle of wine, don't order it or stay home." Yikes. How about I just don't tip you.
- joejohnson 14y ago
  I agree. In fact, why not go a little further and make everything cost 10% more. Then, the customer knows up front exactly what the meal will cost. However the restaurant wants to split the revenue of the final check is up to the restaurant.
  - gridaphobe 14y ago
    This a thousand times, and while we're at it please include tax in the advertised price. Growing up in Germany and the US, I find the US system incredibly deceptive and annoying..
  - dfxm12 14y ago
    There are some laws about this in most states of the US. If a restaurant charges a "x% service fee", then you must pay that fee. Deal with it. If they claim "x% gratuity is included in the check", then you can ask not to pay it. I frequented a restaurant that did the latter. The problem was that they did a bad job of advertising the fact & would sometimes go as far as to not give an itemized check. I personally felt like I was being duped. This led to customers tipping on top on a tip & when customers found out, there was a lot of rage on Yelp et al. They repealed the auto gratuity. Point is, if you are going to do this be loud and clear about it.
- tptacek 14y ago
  Servers are entitled to tips, although ironically not necessarily on wine; while it's customary to simply roll wine into your tip, if you're buying expensive bottles it's acceptable to tip less for it. Tips are part of the way the market for restaurant service is organized. The expectation that you're going to participate in the full market by tipping is universal and an implied part of the US social contract. If this offends you, that's fine: just don't dine in places that expect you to tip. You'll be sending the message to the appropriate target, the business owners, and not to the servers who have no control over the way the market is arranged.
fragsworth 14y ago
There have been many discussions about whether or not servers will spit in your food if you're known not to tip. Whether this actually happens frequently or not (I don't believe it happens very often), it's a fear many people have and is probably a factor that keeps tipping alive.
- raldi 14y ago
  Then why do people tip cab drivers and hairdressers and bellhops?
bradleyland 14y ago
I wonder how the math works out versus a no-tip scenario? Tips are money that doesn't come out of the restaurant owner's pocket. Restaurants tend to run on pretty thin margins, so let's treat this as a zero sum game and assume that any increase in wait staff wages is necessarily passed on to the consumer. I know next to nothing about what a waitress earns or how a restaurant is run, so I'd appreciate if anyone wanted to shoot holes in my reasoning here. I'm genuinely curious, so treat this as a proposition of method, rather than proof. Florida minimum wage for tipped employees is $4.65/hr. I live in Florida, so I'll go with that. $4.65 x 40 hrs a week x 52 weeks a year is $9,672.00 I've known local waitresses who claim to take home around $30k a year (with tips). $30k annually works out to a wage of $14.42/hr given the same 40 hrs x 52 weeks work schedule. $14.42 is about 3 times $4.65 So in a general sense, the restaurant owner would have to pay his wait staff (around) three times as much in order to meet their tipped wage. Not having run a restaurant, I have no idea how that would affect the price of a meal. Can anyone with more knowledge pick it up from here?
- pyoung 14y ago
  If, after increasing the wages, tipping is no longer 'required' of customers, the total price of a meal would stay roughly the same. The owner would raise the price of the meal by about 15%, and pass that on to the servers, however tips would no longer be expected.
jeremyarussell 14y ago
The problem is that we are already in a vicious cycle, you can't break this cycle by not tipping though, all that does is screw the waiter/waitress. If we want to change things we need to do it with litigation to prevent employers from paying less than minimum wage.
tptacek 14y ago
The practice of tipping services a bunch of business purposes: * It creates a spectrum of competition for server spots; service staff at fine dining restaurants make significant amounts of money but must hustle to secure those jobs; service staff at diners make reliable but low amounts of money and can easily find work. * It functions as a commission system; servers who sell higher-priced products get superior returns from those tables, which suits the aims of the restaurant itself. Servers who can move wine make significantly more than servers who can't, and in good restaurants, wine is where the restaurant makes its money. * It obviously helps ensure that servers are polite and helpful, which, restaurants being in the hospitality industry, is obviously a core part of the value proposition. * More importantly, it incentivizes servers to increase table turnover. These are all functions that could be managed at varying levels of effectiveness by other compensation schemes, but those other schemes don't actually improve outcomes for consumers; they raise prices and reduce transparency.
- unconed 14y ago
  Funny. Universally, I've found the dining experience better in places where people don't tip... servers not pushing upgrades, no chasing people away to make room for new customers, knowing exactly how much you'll pay, plates not being snatched away before you can set the fork down, etc. Then again, I grew up in a culture where dinner is the main event, rather than the lead up to it.
  - tptacek 14y ago
    My only restaurant experiences outside the US are in Europe, and my experiences are that service is perfectly friendly but much slower. This doesn't impact me much (nothing wrong with a leisurely dinner), but it is murder on the small business owners of restaurants; below $50USD/table or so, success or failure in food service is all about turnover.
- nextstep 14y ago
  Of all these functions you list, why does the customer need to be involved? These could all be abstracted away from the user. If servers were paid more (and tipping were no longer required), people could still tip on top of that. This still creates your "spectrum of competition." If the restaurants were trying to encourage up-selling (your wine example), then they can give bonuses correlated to how much wine each waiter sells. If tipping is mandatory, it doesn't ensure servers are polite and helpful! This is common sense. If tips are considered a guarantee, then the incentive to work harder is removed. Additionally, waiters are often rude when they feel they have been tipped poorly. So, again, tipping only when you've received exceptional service, makes more sense. As for "transparency," I think the most transparent scheme would be customers are expected to pay the list price. No tacit agreements about tipping or service fees. If it's not a listed charge on the menu, it's not required and it is purely optional. How much more transparent and simple can you get?
skormos 14y ago
"I don't tip because society says I have to. All right, if someone deserves a tip, if they really put forth an effort, I'll give them something a little something extra. But this tipping automatically, it's for the birds. As far as I'm concerned, they're just doing their job." -- Mr. Pink, 'Reservoir Dogs'
kayhi 14y ago
"Why don’t we tip the bus driver? And the doctors?" I worked a couple of years as a lifeguard making essentially minimum wage and saved two children during that time. I received a thank you and appreciated it, but think there should be room for a ten spot.
mattberg 14y ago
the example receipt from the article shows a frustrating concept that has always bothered me. the included 20% gratuity value is actually 20% of the after-tax total, not the pre-tax total. what logic would exist to tip on any sort of tax?
- shabble 14y ago
  Probably the same reason that stuff I order internationally and pay import duty on invariably includes the cost of delivery (which can be £50+ for US reasonably-fast shipping) as the 'package value' declaration. I can't easily imagine a system where this makes sense.
scotty79 14y ago
In robotised restaurants Americans will be leaving customary 20% tip for software and hardware maintenance crew.
kenamarit 14y ago
First, I have to agree, tipping is a bizarre system/cultural norm, and I am very curious about how, historically, this came to be... From my perspective, I spent a year working as a barista and bartender part-time when I first moved to New York, and I would estimate that 80% of those who work as a waiter, barista or bartender do it to support themselves as they pursue whatever it is they do (the usual suspects: acting, art, music, writing, school etc.). This is what kids do to get by--they're not committed in any way to the place they work. At my coffee shop (not at restaurants or bars) I got paid minimum wage plus tips, which at the time was something like $8 + on average $4 to $8 an hour. I can't say I agreed or disagreed with the system at the time, or that I even thought about it, but from my experience the lure of tips greatly outweighed any set amount of (low) salary I would have received. For example, I've gotten a couple $100 tips from Wall St. ballers, or one time $40 from a man just for pouring a cup of coffee! If you work at any number of restaurants, the odds are much higher that on any given night, you will win the tip lottery. And the more a man drinks, the more he will open his heart (and wallet) to the young, struggling artist behind the bar. For the waiter/bartender/barista, I would guess that the average wage comes out to about the same as a respectable working wage for the skills involved (maybe $15-$20/hr). If you work at a Michelin rated restaurant, you would have to get a much much higher starting salary to compensate for a lack of tips, at least in NYC.
terryk88a 14y ago
take it to reddit
fishtoaster 14y ago
On another note, I think it's important to separate discussions on whether you disagree with the tip system from discussions on whether, assuming you disagree with the tip system, you should tip or not. I think this is the source of a lot of the animosity around this issue- debating the merits of tipping is fine, but not tipping at a restaurant where it's expected takes out your frustration with a system by punishing a person (the server) who has no control over that system.
wagerlabs 14y ago
We dined at Nardo's in Havana a summer ago. It's off of Central Park, in front of the Capitolium. Had a great time. The waiter brought us a bill with a 10% service charge and I asked whether a tip was expected. I don't remember why I asked, perhaps the service charge seemed low or maybe I was just curious. The waiter told me that of course the tip was expected... on top of the 10% service charge. This is because the service charge covers the staff in the kitchen while the tip covers the waiter :D.
- shrikant 14y ago
  So... You asked a guy if he should receive more money or less, and are surprised that he chose the first option?
Frozenlock 14y ago
People have weird reactions. If a guy discovers his girlfriend is sleeping with someone else, he will be angry at the other guy. Why? The 'other guy' had no relation with him, he simply met a nice girl and wanted to have a good time. The girl was in a relation with him; he should be angry at her! When I enter a restaurant, I see a price on the menu and this is what I intend to pay. When I order the food, this is my agreement with the restaurant: pay what is asked. The server might be angry at me for not giving any tip, but as with the previous example, I have nothing to do with any contract the restaurant owner and the server might have. He accepted to work for a given salary. I might give a little extra if there's a parade for me or something, but not for just doing your job.

The norm in US is average 15% which could be considered high in other countries. I have lived in 3 countries including US. The only sense I could make out of it is the fact that labor is considered premium in the US (not talking about cost here since that is debatable in 2012). I personally do not mind tipping well (read 20-25%) but I find it disturbing that a waiter gives me attitude, shitty service, forgets to bring straw for the drink and then expects a tip since it is the norm. My wife and I have a joke. Every time a waiter screws up, we deduct 1% from the norm. Every time a waiter does something extra (like being nice, on time, no order screw-ups), we add 1% to the norm.

stefanobernardi 14y ago
That's an interesting system. Do you think that having a 15% base is normal/right?
- yashchandra 14y ago
  Depends. If the service is good, I am fine with 15% base. But I am not fine if I get bad service.
  - nextparadigms 14y ago
    Will you still tip if the service was bad/not adequate? Personally, I don't get tipping either. Aren't they supposed to do their job well in the first place? This probably leads to only having them treat you badly next time if you don't tip them well or at all the first time.
    - 18pfsmt 14y ago
      In the US, a waiter or waitress typically gets paid $2.15/ hour, so hopefully you will take that into consideration.
      - dfxm12 14y ago
        I'm not totally sure this is true since I made more per hour as a bus boy when I was in high school. Either way, you shouldn't take this into consideration. If a server decides to (or is desperate enough to) take such a raw deal, that's on them. Their time can certainly be spent better than hoping customers can subsidize their salary. They'd probably do just as well begging on the corner (begging for tips is still begging just the same). Take into consideration how well the person is serving you.
        masklinn 14y ago
        > I'm not totally sure this is true Depends on the state you're in, $2.15 is the federal minimum for tipped staff (and the employer is supposed to match standard (non-tipped) federal minimum wage if tips don't bring staff over) but many states have their own labor laws going beyond federal standards. For instance NH has a $3.27 tipped minimum wage (and a federal minimum wage), Washington State has a single minimum wage (no tipped staff exception) of $9.04.
- astrodust 14y ago
  That's typical in most parts, but New York is moving towards 20% being the norm. Maybe it'll be 25% for crappy service, 50% for decent treatment in the future if it keeps escalating.
tomp 14y ago
When I was in the US, the norm was 10%. Anyone has a clue why the tip is raising faster than inflation?
masklinn 14y ago
> The norm in US is average 15% which could be considered high in other countries Infinitely so, as most countries either include staff remuneration in the bill or automatically add a service charge to the bill. Tips generally aren't expected in any western european country that I know, for instance. Exceptional service is sometimes rewarded, but beyond that there is no tipping apart from people leaving the change "on the table" (because they can't be arsed)

stefanobernardi 14y ago

I'd love to hear from the HN community reasons that make this one a good system, and hope to not generate too much of a religious war.

raganwald 14y ago
You ask reasonable questions, the problem (like anything else involving disrupting an existing practice) is implementing it. You can’t just go around not tipping, in the hopes that decent waiters will start demanding higher wages from their employers. I mean, you can, and you’ll save some money, but you won’t change the system by yourself. Also, your objection to paying a percentage of the bill is not the strongest point in the article. It’s true that Fedex charge me the same money to deliver an envelope containing a contract worth $10,000 as they do to deliver a birthday card worth $5. They would probably love to charge me more for the contract, that would help them with price discrimination. But since they can’t peek at the contents of the envelope, they try to find a proxy for value in the form of speed of delivery. Rush service costs more, ostensibly because the sooner you need it, the more valuable it is and the more you’re willing to pay. Sometimes, that’s way off like with a birthday card you’re trying to get delivered in time for a birthday, but on the whole the system is good enough. Likewise with tipping. Forget about trying to value the service by the cost to deliver it. The system is trying to charge you what you can afford, and the amount you spend on the food is close enough to make things work out most of the time. The entire system is sitting in a local maximum that’s good enough for most purposes. If you try to deviate a little, you’ll end up with worse outcomes for everyone. You need a dramatic and disruptive change to the entire thing to move it to another local maximum. I encourage you to think of this as an exercise in startup business planning. Imagine there was a YC company that “fixed” the system. What product or service would it provide and how would it extract value from the current inefficiencies?
- masklinn 14y ago
  > You ask reasonable questions, the problem (like anything else involving disrupting an existing practice) is implementing it. It really isn't that hard: remove "tipped staff" exceptions to US labor laws and everybody will adjust quite fast. > The entire system is sitting in a local maximum that’s good enough for most purposes. If you try to deviate a little, you’ll end up with worse outcomes for everyone. Do you really? That seems to be an assertion based on absolutely no foundations.

nextstep 14y ago

I don't know why, but this is a topic about which people often hold very strong views. I agree with the author, but I feel like this viewpoint is discouraged, at least in the US; tipping is mandatory, and it is considered rude not to tip. But, if tipping is mandatory, why not just advertise the real price? Take a cabe ride for example: I pay the driver to take me from point A to B. He (or she) completes this task, and I pay them. Very rarely do I feel like I have received exceptional service, and often the drivers are rude and impatient. But I have to tip at least 10-15% or I'm an asshole. Maybe we'd all receive better service if we stopped compulsory tipping, and instead only tipped when we receive good customer service.

stefanobernardi 14y ago
I'm all hears for a solution to this problem. I've been thinking about it and failing at it. The system is really ubiquitous at the moment.
- glhaynes 14y ago
  Many regions of the world work just fine without tipping, so the difficulty would be in the transition. Have any cultures successfully made the transition from tipping to not-tipping? Seems like the only start toward doing so would be to force minimum wage standards to be applied to all workers. This would benefit some but cause significant hardships to some others, so it seems to me unlikely to be achievable.
  - kyt 14y ago
    What does 'just fine' mean? There is a large restaurant service disparity between the US and Europe.
  - twoodfin 14y ago
    Many regions of the world may "work just fine", but I'll put the service you'll get at an average priced sit down restaurant in an averaged sized city of the U.S. against a comparable establishment anywhere else on Earth. That's not to say there aren't friendly, competent staff everywhere, but at least my anecdotal experience has been that the U.S. and its tipping culture excels at providing good to excellent service on average. The chief advantage of tipping is that it encourages people who are skilled at providing customer service to stay in the industry and those who are not to leave. Other feedback mechanisms might be possible, but they'd be much more complex.

fishtoaster 14y ago

I'm not sure the comparison to other industries is apt- servers serve you, and the majority of the quality of their output comes directly from their personal interactions with you. Contrast this to, say, a programmer, where the majority of the quality of their output comes from their product- if the software they write is good, their interactions with the customer (if any) are not very important. Tips in serving and other interaction-heavy professions (doormen, barbers, delivery people) allow a much more immediate feedback loop for poor service than the traditional "If you suck, you'll get fired in a month or two" system. The reason there's a standard tip amount is because that gives people something to deduct from for particularly bad service. If the default were no tip, customers would have to fall back on the traditional feedback mechanisms (that are both slow and considerably more effort) like complaining the the manager. Personally, I'd say the biggest argument against tipping is that it tends to reflect many things that are largely outside the server's control: food quality, food preparation time, atmosphere, general dining experience.

masklinn 14y ago
> I'm not sure the comparison to other industries is apt- servers serve you, and the majority of the quality of their output comes directly from their personal interactions with you. So it is for your doctor or your cab driver. > Tips in serving and other interaction-heavy professions (doormen, barbers, delivery people) Are either reserved for beyond flawless service or are basically bribes.
- fishtoaster 14y ago
  For my doctor, the primary measure of his quality is how good he is at medicine– that is, whether I get better or not. I'd prefer that he's nice and friendly, but curing my bronchitis is the more important aspect of our interaction. For a server, the interaction is the primary thing I care about.
  - masklinn 14y ago
    > For a server, the interaction is the primary thing I care about. Really? Why would you do that? My primary measure of a server's quality is how fast he brings my food and how absent he is when I have no need for him. So the primary thing I care about would really be how close he is to the minimum amount of interaction necessary for service.

kzahel 14y ago

I rarely tip. But when I do, I do it with just the tip

jasonshen 14y ago

There are a lot of strange practices that exist within society and there are probably good historical reasons for why tipping emerged in the United States. Perhaps it'd be better not to fuss over it and instead focus on changing things that really matter, rather than fighting arbitrary social norms that are inconsequential in the long run.

jemka 14y ago
Excuses. Excusing a wrong on any bases is a slippery slope which can lead to excuses for not "changing things that really matter". Change is the common denominator. Change is what people have issues with and create excuses not to do.
- mertd 14y ago
  What is wrong with mentally adding 15% to everything on the menu?
  - jemka 14y ago
    The price listing is merely a consequence of the problem. It's moot.

FrankenTan 14y ago

It's my (uninformed and second-hand) impression that tipping-culture is often defined whether the waiters\servers are given minimum livable salary or whether the tip is the larger income.

Killswitch 14y ago

Love this article. I worked in the restaurant industry for 6 years, mainly as a cook, so I didn't get tipped as my wages were decent, but when I did exceptional service, I did receive a "Please give this to the cook" tip and it made me feel good. I normally tip, but at the same time, I hate that people feel they are mandatory to tip... No it's a reason for exceptional service, not "I served you food, you tip me". If you rely on your tips then look for a different job. If you make me feel obligated to tip you, I won't and it won't bother me either. That being said, I am really bad at tipping $10 for a $5 beer... :(

3pt14159 14y ago

Tipping would work better if people increased the tipping variance. When I have really shitty service => no tip. OK service 12% because anything less and I'm considered a jerk. Why isn't 5% standard for OK, but rushed service?

Revisor 14y ago
That's pretty much how it works in Central Europe, with the difference that 10% and more goes for great service.

wtvanhest 14y ago

I don't know about other Americans, but when I visit other countries I typically find the servers nice but slow and the overall quality of service much lower. When I was a server I would work hard to make sure I got every dollar. The tip is always on your mind, all night. The other good thing about tipping is that it also makes the job a sales job. The higher the bill, the higher the tip and therefore it properly aligns incentives with the restaurant. The exception to that is fraud where a server provides free items to attempt to get a larger tip. I get that it must be extremely irritating for people from outside the US to get a price and then have to do the math to figure out what it really costs, but that is a small price to pay for superior service all the time.

GuiA 14y ago
I'm European, and am used to not tipping— and I hate service in the US :) Waiters come bother you every 5 minute asking if everything ok, if they can refill your water, etc. I just like to enjoy my food and have conversation with my tablemates without being interrupted every 5 minute. In France, the waiter comes to take your order and give you your food, and that's it. You usually have a caraffe of water and a basket of bread on the table so that you don't have to wait on the waiter's good will to refill your glass. Additionally, in the US, you tend to be escorted out as soon as you're finished eating because the more tables the waiter serves, the more money he makes. This is extremely irritating— after I'm done eating, I like taking the time to talk with people and hangout without having the bill shoved in my face and the waiter asking us to leave (happened a few times). In France, you leave whenever you want to (unless the restaurant is extremely busy I assume, but it never happened to me). So no, I wouldn't call the service "superior"— rather more irritating and intrusive because that's the best way to get a good tip, while pretending to be superior.
- raldi 14y ago
  It's subjective. Whichever standard you're used to, the opposite is irritating. As an example, when I (an American) visited France and Italy, I couldn't stand that it took 30+ minutes after finishing our meals to pay the bill and get out of there. But that's not really linked to tipping or the lack thereof; tipping's unusual in Japan, and yet they're the gold standard for getting out of a restaurant quickly once your meal is done.

sparknlaunch12 14y ago

Being European I have never understood the tipping culture. However the Brits (and other European countries) don't have a tipping culture but have a '12.5% service charge' at restaurants. I believe to avoid any ambiguity you simply have a all or nothing policy.

shabble 14y ago
If an establishment has a declared service rate, I'm much less likely to consider tipping in excess of that rate, even for service that would receive more from me elsewhere. If they've decided what they're worth, who am I to argue?
- sparknlaunch12 14y ago
  I am torn between wanting transparency and simplicity. Transparency - I want to know what expenses make up the final price I pay. Simplicity - I just want to pay one single figure. This may explain the anger over airfares. People complained airfares cost too much. Then companies like Ryan Air broke down the costs. Then people got angry that the individual costs were unfair. Dammed if you do, dammed if you don't?
  - DanBC 14y ago
    Ryanair broke down the charges, but tended to have "FLY TO PARIS ONLY £9!!!" in huge type, with a list of additions in tiny type at the end of the ads.

aneth 14y ago

Regardless of anything else, it's wrong that servers are paid less per hour just because tips are common. This places an unfair burden on customers, and took tips from being part of a culture of discretionary generosity to being enshrined law. Since the tip is now required for the server to earn minimum wage, it is no longer a tip but a sort of marginally optional "fee." IMO, a 10% service charge without expectation of a tip makes much more sense and is much fairer. The entitlement culture in the service industry is so great that servers will angrily say things like "if you can't afford to tip on a bottle of wine, don't order it or stay home." Yikes. How about I just don't tip you.

joejohnson 14y ago
I agree. In fact, why not go a little further and make everything cost 10% more. Then, the customer knows up front exactly what the meal will cost. However the restaurant wants to split the revenue of the final check is up to the restaurant.
- gridaphobe 14y ago
  This a thousand times, and while we're at it please include tax in the advertised price. Growing up in Germany and the US, I find the US system incredibly deceptive and annoying..
- dfxm12 14y ago
  There are some laws about this in most states of the US. If a restaurant charges a "x% service fee", then you must pay that fee. Deal with it. If they claim "x% gratuity is included in the check", then you can ask not to pay it. I frequented a restaurant that did the latter. The problem was that they did a bad job of advertising the fact & would sometimes go as far as to not give an itemized check. I personally felt like I was being duped. This led to customers tipping on top on a tip & when customers found out, there was a lot of rage on Yelp et al. They repealed the auto gratuity. Point is, if you are going to do this be loud and clear about it.
tptacek 14y ago
Servers are entitled to tips, although ironically not necessarily on wine; while it's customary to simply roll wine into your tip, if you're buying expensive bottles it's acceptable to tip less for it. Tips are part of the way the market for restaurant service is organized. The expectation that you're going to participate in the full market by tipping is universal and an implied part of the US social contract. If this offends you, that's fine: just don't dine in places that expect you to tip. You'll be sending the message to the appropriate target, the business owners, and not to the servers who have no control over the way the market is arranged.

fragsworth 14y ago

There have been many discussions about whether or not servers will spit in your food if you're known not to tip. Whether this actually happens frequently or not (I don't believe it happens very often), it's a fear many people have and is probably a factor that keeps tipping alive.

raldi 14y ago
Then why do people tip cab drivers and hairdressers and bellhops?

bradleyland 14y ago

I wonder how the math works out versus a no-tip scenario? Tips are money that doesn't come out of the restaurant owner's pocket. Restaurants tend to run on pretty thin margins, so let's treat this as a zero sum game and assume that any increase in wait staff wages is necessarily passed on to the consumer. I know next to nothing about what a waitress earns or how a restaurant is run, so I'd appreciate if anyone wanted to shoot holes in my reasoning here. I'm genuinely curious, so treat this as a proposition of method, rather than proof. Florida minimum wage for tipped employees is $4.65/hr. I live in Florida, so I'll go with that. $4.65 x 40 hrs a week x 52 weeks a year is $9,672.00 I've known local waitresses who claim to take home around $30k a year (with tips). $30k annually works out to a wage of $14.42/hr given the same 40 hrs x 52 weeks work schedule. $14.42 is about 3 times $4.65 So in a general sense, the restaurant owner would have to pay his wait staff (around) three times as much in order to meet their tipped wage. Not having run a restaurant, I have no idea how that would affect the price of a meal. Can anyone with more knowledge pick it up from here?

pyoung 14y ago
If, after increasing the wages, tipping is no longer 'required' of customers, the total price of a meal would stay roughly the same. The owner would raise the price of the meal by about 15%, and pass that on to the servers, however tips would no longer be expected.

jeremyarussell 14y ago

The problem is that we are already in a vicious cycle, you can't break this cycle by not tipping though, all that does is screw the waiter/waitress. If we want to change things we need to do it with litigation to prevent employers from paying less than minimum wage.

tptacek 14y ago

The practice of tipping services a bunch of business purposes: * It creates a spectrum of competition for server spots; service staff at fine dining restaurants make significant amounts of money but must hustle to secure those jobs; service staff at diners make reliable but low amounts of money and can easily find work. * It functions as a commission system; servers who sell higher-priced products get superior returns from those tables, which suits the aims of the restaurant itself. Servers who can move wine make significantly more than servers who can't, and in good restaurants, wine is where the restaurant makes its money. * It obviously helps ensure that servers are polite and helpful, which, restaurants being in the hospitality industry, is obviously a core part of the value proposition. * More importantly, it incentivizes servers to increase table turnover. These are all functions that could be managed at varying levels of effectiveness by other compensation schemes, but those other schemes don't actually improve outcomes for consumers; they raise prices and reduce transparency.

unconed 14y ago
Funny. Universally, I've found the dining experience better in places where people don't tip... servers not pushing upgrades, no chasing people away to make room for new customers, knowing exactly how much you'll pay, plates not being snatched away before you can set the fork down, etc. Then again, I grew up in a culture where dinner is the main event, rather than the lead up to it.
- tptacek 14y ago
  My only restaurant experiences outside the US are in Europe, and my experiences are that service is perfectly friendly but much slower. This doesn't impact me much (nothing wrong with a leisurely dinner), but it is murder on the small business owners of restaurants; below $50USD/table or so, success or failure in food service is all about turnover.
nextstep 14y ago
Of all these functions you list, why does the customer need to be involved? These could all be abstracted away from the user. If servers were paid more (and tipping were no longer required), people could still tip on top of that. This still creates your "spectrum of competition." If the restaurants were trying to encourage up-selling (your wine example), then they can give bonuses correlated to how much wine each waiter sells. If tipping is mandatory, it doesn't ensure servers are polite and helpful! This is common sense. If tips are considered a guarantee, then the incentive to work harder is removed. Additionally, waiters are often rude when they feel they have been tipped poorly. So, again, tipping only when you've received exceptional service, makes more sense. As for "transparency," I think the most transparent scheme would be customers are expected to pay the list price. No tacit agreements about tipping or service fees. If it's not a listed charge on the menu, it's not required and it is purely optional. How much more transparent and simple can you get?

skormos 14y ago

"I don't tip because society says I have to. All right, if someone deserves a tip, if they really put forth an effort, I'll give them something a little something extra. But this tipping automatically, it's for the birds. As far as I'm concerned, they're just doing their job." -- Mr. Pink, 'Reservoir Dogs'

kayhi 14y ago

"Why don’t we tip the bus driver? And the doctors?" I worked a couple of years as a lifeguard making essentially minimum wage and saved two children during that time. I received a thank you and appreciated it, but think there should be room for a ten spot.

mattberg 14y ago

the example receipt from the article shows a frustrating concept that has always bothered me. the included 20% gratuity value is actually 20% of the after-tax total, not the pre-tax total. what logic would exist to tip on any sort of tax?

shabble 14y ago
Probably the same reason that stuff I order internationally and pay import duty on invariably includes the cost of delivery (which can be £50+ for US reasonably-fast shipping) as the 'package value' declaration. I can't easily imagine a system where this makes sense.

scotty79 14y ago

In robotised restaurants Americans will be leaving customary 20% tip for software and hardware maintenance crew.

kenamarit 14y ago

First, I have to agree, tipping is a bizarre system/cultural norm, and I am very curious about how, historically, this came to be... From my perspective, I spent a year working as a barista and bartender part-time when I first moved to New York, and I would estimate that 80% of those who work as a waiter, barista or bartender do it to support themselves as they pursue whatever it is they do (the usual suspects: acting, art, music, writing, school etc.). This is what kids do to get by--they're not committed in any way to the place they work. At my coffee shop (not at restaurants or bars) I got paid minimum wage plus tips, which at the time was something like $8 + on average $4 to $8 an hour. I can't say I agreed or disagreed with the system at the time, or that I even thought about it, but from my experience the lure of tips greatly outweighed any set amount of (low) salary I would have received. For example, I've gotten a couple $100 tips from Wall St. ballers, or one time $40 from a man just for pouring a cup of coffee! If you work at any number of restaurants, the odds are much higher that on any given night, you will win the tip lottery. And the more a man drinks, the more he will open his heart (and wallet) to the young, struggling artist behind the bar. For the waiter/bartender/barista, I would guess that the average wage comes out to about the same as a respectable working wage for the skills involved (maybe $15-$20/hr). If you work at a Michelin rated restaurant, you would have to get a much much higher starting salary to compensate for a lack of tips, at least in NYC.

terryk88a 14y ago

take it to reddit

fishtoaster 14y ago

On another note, I think it's important to separate discussions on whether you disagree with the tip system from discussions on whether, assuming you disagree with the tip system, you should tip or not. I think this is the source of a lot of the animosity around this issue- debating the merits of tipping is fine, but not tipping at a restaurant where it's expected takes out your frustration with a system by punishing a person (the server) who has no control over that system.

wagerlabs 14y ago

We dined at Nardo's in Havana a summer ago. It's off of Central Park, in front of the Capitolium. Had a great time. The waiter brought us a bill with a 10% service charge and I asked whether a tip was expected. I don't remember why I asked, perhaps the service charge seemed low or maybe I was just curious. The waiter told me that of course the tip was expected... on top of the 10% service charge. This is because the service charge covers the staff in the kitchen while the tip covers the waiter :D.

shrikant 14y ago
So... You asked a guy if he should receive more money or less, and are surprised that he chose the first option?

Frozenlock 14y ago

People have weird reactions. If a guy discovers his girlfriend is sleeping with someone else, he will be angry at the other guy. Why? The 'other guy' had no relation with him, he simply met a nice girl and wanted to have a good time. The girl was in a relation with him; he should be angry at her! When I enter a restaurant, I see a price on the menu and this is what I intend to pay. When I order the food, this is my agreement with the restaurant: pay what is asked. The server might be angry at me for not giving any tip, but as with the previous example, I have nothing to do with any contract the restaurant owner and the server might have. He accepted to work for a given salary. I might give a little extra if there's a parade for me or something, but not for just doing your job.