3 ms·

This is basically how all construction and manufacturing jobs work out, though? It isn't an isolated "single person" that can make arbitrary changes. They can

by taeric 3y ago

This is basically how all construction and manufacturing jobs work out, though? It isn't an isolated "single person" that can make arbitrary changes. They can propose something and it should be reviewed. So, I don't think it is quite as simple as an isolated bug, per se. But it is very common for changes to get introduced at build time of physical things. Depending on where and what the change is, the level of review for it will be very different.

ziddoap 3y ago
>This is basically how all construction and manufacturing jobs work out, though? Not really. Any place with a decent QA department would sample a part, compare it to the specification, and raise an alarm because the part differs from the specification. There also should be occasional audits on the build process itself, which should have identified this, as it would differ from the specified process. This type of issue (again, assuming the articles wording is true -- I have no idea) can only occur if there is either bad/missing QA, or bad/missing specifications. >But it is very common for changes to get introduced at build time of physical things Even in construction you need to have changes approved (i.e. a "change order" approved by the architect, engineer, and owner). Even extremely minor changes (which this would not be) must be documented on the "as-built" drawings.
- DiggyJohnson 3y ago
  > Even in construction you need to have changes approved (i.e. a "change order" approved by the architect, engineer, and owner). Even extremely minor changes (which this would not be) must be documented on the "as-built" drawings. Do you really think this is what happens on job sites? Does this match your personal experience? Because my initial reaction was to laugh to myself at how rarely contractors, subcontractors, and crewmembers would actually engage a process like the one you are describing here. Non-spec stuff happens all the time without record, even in firms with solid QA.
  - ziddoap 3y ago
    >Do you really think this is what happens on job sites? Does this match your personal experience? I worked in ICI (Industrial, Commercial, Institutional) construction for ~10 years. Yes, this matches my experience. Perhaps it is different where you are from. I also experienced this while doing utility locating for oil & gas pipelines (~2 years). As-built drawings were very accurate, and detailed any deviation from the initial drawings.
    - kylecordes 3y ago
      In the 2000s I had a SaaS firm making software for underground utility locating companies so I learned a lot about the industry. In most parts of the country as built drawings are unusual for residential property anyway. Locating staff mostly shows up, looks at whatever drawings are available, and then has to figure out what was actually done from the clues and by using locating equipment. Many of these folks end up with a very subtle understanding of what common practice was by different utility companies in various specific areas in specific eras.
      - ziddoap 3y ago
        >In most parts of the country as built drawings are unusual for residential property anyway. I was doing large transmission pipelines (i.e. NPS 24 to NPS 56), so I can't speak to residential, but I wouldn't be surprised if there was less attention paid to as-built drawings when the cost of damage/replacement wasn't in the millions of dollars.
  - FireBeyond 3y ago
    I am involved with software that moves data between construction ERP systems and financial systems. Typically used in mid market commercial companies. The single most commonly synced entity is Commitment Change Order items.
  - quickthrowman 3y ago
    > Do you really think this is what happens on job sites? Does this match your personal experience? Yes, it does. I’m a construction project manager, I’m not having my crew do any work that isn’t represented in the current revision of the plans and specs without approval because that’s the only way you get paid for the extras. Also if it’s an unapproved and unwanted change, you have to pay to remove it. Anyone managing a project who cares about managing their risk is going to submit RFIs and RFCs for every change. It’s possible that the (tiny and insignificant) residential market is different, but that’s how commercial and industrial construction works. It’s possible some tiny and insignificant changes like moving a receptacle or data opening a couple inches aren’t properly documented on the as-builts, but major changes almost always are. > Because my initial reaction was to laugh to myself at how rarely contractors, subcontractors, and crewmembers would actually engage a process like the one you are describing here. The firms you hire to work on your house aren’t representative of the firms who manage or work on commercial and industrial projects.
- taeric 3y ago
  This is going on the idea that there wasn't a documentation event with this change? I'm positing that knowing it is a recall on all of the trucks indicates that it was, in fact, a signed off change on the assembly line. That is to say, just because it was on the assembly line doesn't mean it wasn't reviewed. And just because it was reviewed doesn't mean it wasn't a mistake. Part of the sign off was almost certainly "does not need retesting" for implementation. Which, was clearly a mistake. But isn't a sign of a broken QA system.
  - ziddoap 3y ago
    Relevant part of the quote which started this discussion: >“[a]n unapproved change [...] Unapproved, to me, implies that it was not reviewed or signed-off. >Part of the sign off was almost certainly "does not need retesting" for implementation If you are not assuring your quality, you have a QA failure. Regardless, I initially said "serious policy and procedure failure". Which, if you change a safety-critical component in your product and don't do testing on it, that is a serious policy failure.
    - taeric 3y ago
      Ah, totally fair. I took that to be "unapproved all the way back to the designer." Which, yeah, that doesn't happen. It almost certainly has approval from a line manager at the bare minimum, if it helps perform the assembly. If it goes to more teams than a single line, it gets more approval. I think I largely biased to the next message, which did indicate reviews would happen, but that they have some freedom at the line. And that still sounds right to me.

by taeric 3y ago

ziddoap 3y ago

>This is basically how all construction and manufacturing jobs work out, though? Not really. Any place with a decent QA department would sample a part, compare it to the specification, and raise an alarm because the part differs from the specification. There also should be occasional audits on the build process itself, which should have identified this, as it would differ from the specified process. This type of issue (again, assuming the articles wording is true -- I have no idea) can only occur if there is either bad/missing QA, or bad/missing specifications. >But it is very common for changes to get introduced at build time of physical things Even in construction you need to have changes approved (i.e. a "change order" approved by the architect, engineer, and owner). Even extremely minor changes (which this would not be) must be documented on the "as-built" drawings.

DiggyJohnson 3y ago
> Even in construction you need to have changes approved (i.e. a "change order" approved by the architect, engineer, and owner). Even extremely minor changes (which this would not be) must be documented on the "as-built" drawings. Do you really think this is what happens on job sites? Does this match your personal experience? Because my initial reaction was to laugh to myself at how rarely contractors, subcontractors, and crewmembers would actually engage a process like the one you are describing here. Non-spec stuff happens all the time without record, even in firms with solid QA.
- ziddoap 3y ago
  >Do you really think this is what happens on job sites? Does this match your personal experience? I worked in ICI (Industrial, Commercial, Institutional) construction for ~10 years. Yes, this matches my experience. Perhaps it is different where you are from. I also experienced this while doing utility locating for oil & gas pipelines (~2 years). As-built drawings were very accurate, and detailed any deviation from the initial drawings.
  - kylecordes 3y ago
    In the 2000s I had a SaaS firm making software for underground utility locating companies so I learned a lot about the industry. In most parts of the country as built drawings are unusual for residential property anyway. Locating staff mostly shows up, looks at whatever drawings are available, and then has to figure out what was actually done from the clues and by using locating equipment. Many of these folks end up with a very subtle understanding of what common practice was by different utility companies in various specific areas in specific eras.
    - ziddoap 3y ago
      >In most parts of the country as built drawings are unusual for residential property anyway. I was doing large transmission pipelines (i.e. NPS 24 to NPS 56), so I can't speak to residential, but I wouldn't be surprised if there was less attention paid to as-built drawings when the cost of damage/replacement wasn't in the millions of dollars.
- FireBeyond 3y ago
  I am involved with software that moves data between construction ERP systems and financial systems. Typically used in mid market commercial companies. The single most commonly synced entity is Commitment Change Order items.
- quickthrowman 3y ago
  > Do you really think this is what happens on job sites? Does this match your personal experience? Yes, it does. I’m a construction project manager, I’m not having my crew do any work that isn’t represented in the current revision of the plans and specs without approval because that’s the only way you get paid for the extras. Also if it’s an unapproved and unwanted change, you have to pay to remove it. Anyone managing a project who cares about managing their risk is going to submit RFIs and RFCs for every change. It’s possible that the (tiny and insignificant) residential market is different, but that’s how commercial and industrial construction works. It’s possible some tiny and insignificant changes like moving a receptacle or data opening a couple inches aren’t properly documented on the as-builts, but major changes almost always are. > Because my initial reaction was to laugh to myself at how rarely contractors, subcontractors, and crewmembers would actually engage a process like the one you are describing here. The firms you hire to work on your house aren’t representative of the firms who manage or work on commercial and industrial projects.
taeric 3y ago
This is going on the idea that there wasn't a documentation event with this change? I'm positing that knowing it is a recall on all of the trucks indicates that it was, in fact, a signed off change on the assembly line. That is to say, just because it was on the assembly line doesn't mean it wasn't reviewed. And just because it was reviewed doesn't mean it wasn't a mistake. Part of the sign off was almost certainly "does not need retesting" for implementation. Which, was clearly a mistake. But isn't a sign of a broken QA system.
- ziddoap 3y ago
  Relevant part of the quote which started this discussion: >“[a]n unapproved change [...] Unapproved, to me, implies that it was not reviewed or signed-off. >Part of the sign off was almost certainly "does not need retesting" for implementation If you are not assuring your quality, you have a QA failure. Regardless, I initially said "serious policy and procedure failure". Which, if you change a safety-critical component in your product and don't do testing on it, that is a serious policy failure.
  - taeric 3y ago
    Ah, totally fair. I took that to be "unapproved all the way back to the designer." Which, yeah, that doesn't happen. It almost certainly has approval from a line manager at the bare minimum, if it helps perform the assembly. If it goes to more teams than a single line, it gets more approval. I think I largely biased to the next message, which did indicate reviews would happen, but that they have some freedom at the line. And that still sounds right to me.