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From the article: “It began in 2021 and provides cloud computing services to Israel—specifically, we’ve recently learned, to the Israeli Ministry of Defense—an

From the article: “It began in 2021 and provides cloud computing services to Israel—specifically, we’ve recently learned, to the Israeli Ministry of Defense—and though it has faced internal criticism since its inception, efforts against it have naturally intensified since October 7th.” Criticism has intensified since October 7th? Since the day that was marked by the assault, kidnapping and massacre of thousands of civilians initiated by Hamas? That October 7th? There’s plenty to criticize about Israel’s campaign in Gaza, but tying objections back to the original date of the Hamas attack is pretty gross.

hedora 3y ago
Yeah; according to an IDF report on intercepted Hamas documents (so, both sides agree on this; nothing here should be controversial today and it was well-understood by leadership on both sides on that day): - Hamas had a < 20% approval rating before the attacks, and couldn’t recruit. If no action was taken, they’d fade into obscurity, and the conflict would finally end in a few years. - Their plan was to force Israel to do something so bad that it would escalate into a regional conflict, and allow them to recruit again. - Hamas’ goal was to get Israel to level Gaza. They estimated that three days of slaughtering civilians would be enough to get Israel to do something unforgivable in response. - Israel reacted after one day. At this point Hamas had won, and stopped their initial campaign. - Hamas now has a > 70% approval rating, and can easily recruit, so things are going as well as they could hope, organizationally. My opinion (I can’t come up with anything else that matches the facts): The military leadership on both sides of this conflict should be tried and convicted for war crimes, including genocide. The conflict is happening because the military wings of both governments are trying to consolidate power and secure funding/resources. The Israeli and Palestinian civilians (and Israeli conscripts — they still have a draft) are the victims here. Their only hope is that they’d band together as part of a peace movement and replace their own governments (via an election in Israel), but, predictably, mob rule and fear have strengthened the right wing militants on both sides.
- everforward 3y ago
  Naomi Wolf is as prescient today as she was in 2007: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_End_of_America:_Letter_of_Warning_to_a_Young_Patriot https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_End_of_America:_Letter_o... The easiest way to build internal cohesion is to invent or create an external enemy and distract everyone with that. I tend to agree, though. The conflict feels manufactured by the respective militaries to distract from internal issues. It’s a waste of human life to cover up dysfunctional governing. How’s Netanyahu’s corruption trial going? Curious how that timing works out, haven’t heard much about since Israel started leveling Gaza… That’s not to say Hamas is better, I just don’t expect much of them. They’re not exactly shy about speaking their mind.
  - nolongerthere 2y ago
    > How’s Netanyahu’s corruption trial going? Curious how that timing works out, haven’t heard much about since Israel started leveling Gaza… It's been going pretty poorly actually as the defense actually had time to build a case and the prosecution has been shown to be purely politically motivated with very flimsy evidence such as "he didn't say it but his eyes implied it". Basically there isn't a case and it turns out that he's about as guilty as your average politician in any western country. Which is... kinda guilty but also so is everyone... so if you're gonna treat him like enemy number one for accepting gifts from long time friends, then to actually make it fair you'd need to basically take out the entire elite-class in the entire western world in a french style revolution. Obviously there's no appetite for that, and all the people who will say "yea lets do that" don't actually think they'll be expected to follow through on dropping the guillotine or axe on any one's neck. So can comfortably pretend that they want "justice" when really all they want is their political rivals removed from power. Which is fine, but don't pretend you're actually looking to root out corruption, as we saw with trump. Both sides were only willing to call out the other side's president for being careless with classified documents, while making every excuse for their own political leaders "mishaps".
- cooloo 3y ago
  [flagged]
racional 3y ago
That October 7th? For basically the entire rest of world at this point - that day is now unfortunately much more strongly identified with the start of the genocidal campaign begun by the IDF (apparently with logistical support from Google) almost immediately thereafter. Which has unfortunately dwarfed the atrocities committed by Hamas on that day in both scope and intent. Flag all you want. I am simply pointing out the fact that the net result of Israel's response to events of that day has been to create an enduring public relations disaster for itself (which will take decades to recover from), and to serve as a platform for an equally robust and enduring recruiting campaign for Hamas. This is very obviously why people are saying "criticism has intensified since October 7th". Not because the criticisms are tied to the events of the day, as such.
klyrs 3y ago
Likewise, I started getting real critical of Islamophobia in the US on the very day of 9/11. We are judged, not in how we act on the best of days, but how we act on the worst of days. The events of 9/11 didn't make me love Islam or its adherents. But the way the american public, press, and politicians responded to the events awoke me to the dehumanizing view that many hold towards them. It's no different here. Israel has long held their boot to the neck of Palestinians while funding Hamas; but now they play the victim and use that to justify genocide because the inevitable happened.
- mikrotikker 3y ago
  There is no genocide.
  - ycombinatrix 3y ago
    There is no war in Ba Sing Se
yencabulator 3y ago
Perhaps it's just that increased awareness brings a larger audience, and not related to the specific cause for the increased awareness.
protomolecule 3y ago
"massacre of thousands of civilians initiated by Hamas" Well, it is Israel who is killing thousands of civilians. Hamas was stopped at approximately one thousand, but there is no one to stop Israel.

hedora 3y ago

Yeah; according to an IDF report on intercepted Hamas documents (so, both sides agree on this; nothing here should be controversial today and it was well-understood by leadership on both sides on that day): - Hamas had a < 20% approval rating before the attacks, and couldn’t recruit. If no action was taken, they’d fade into obscurity, and the conflict would finally end in a few years. - Their plan was to force Israel to do something so bad that it would escalate into a regional conflict, and allow them to recruit again. - Hamas’ goal was to get Israel to level Gaza. They estimated that three days of slaughtering civilians would be enough to get Israel to do something unforgivable in response. - Israel reacted after one day. At this point Hamas had won, and stopped their initial campaign. - Hamas now has a > 70% approval rating, and can easily recruit, so things are going as well as they could hope, organizationally. My opinion (I can’t come up with anything else that matches the facts): The military leadership on both sides of this conflict should be tried and convicted for war crimes, including genocide. The conflict is happening because the military wings of both governments are trying to consolidate power and secure funding/resources. The Israeli and Palestinian civilians (and Israeli conscripts — they still have a draft) are the victims here. Their only hope is that they’d band together as part of a peace movement and replace their own governments (via an election in Israel), but, predictably, mob rule and fear have strengthened the right wing militants on both sides.

everforward 3y ago
Naomi Wolf is as prescient today as she was in 2007: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_End_of_America:_Letter_of_Warning_to_a_Young_Patriot https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_End_of_America:_Letter_o... The easiest way to build internal cohesion is to invent or create an external enemy and distract everyone with that. I tend to agree, though. The conflict feels manufactured by the respective militaries to distract from internal issues. It’s a waste of human life to cover up dysfunctional governing. How’s Netanyahu’s corruption trial going? Curious how that timing works out, haven’t heard much about since Israel started leveling Gaza… That’s not to say Hamas is better, I just don’t expect much of them. They’re not exactly shy about speaking their mind.
- nolongerthere 2y ago
  > How’s Netanyahu’s corruption trial going? Curious how that timing works out, haven’t heard much about since Israel started leveling Gaza… It's been going pretty poorly actually as the defense actually had time to build a case and the prosecution has been shown to be purely politically motivated with very flimsy evidence such as "he didn't say it but his eyes implied it". Basically there isn't a case and it turns out that he's about as guilty as your average politician in any western country. Which is... kinda guilty but also so is everyone... so if you're gonna treat him like enemy number one for accepting gifts from long time friends, then to actually make it fair you'd need to basically take out the entire elite-class in the entire western world in a french style revolution. Obviously there's no appetite for that, and all the people who will say "yea lets do that" don't actually think they'll be expected to follow through on dropping the guillotine or axe on any one's neck. So can comfortably pretend that they want "justice" when really all they want is their political rivals removed from power. Which is fine, but don't pretend you're actually looking to root out corruption, as we saw with trump. Both sides were only willing to call out the other side's president for being careless with classified documents, while making every excuse for their own political leaders "mishaps".
cooloo 3y ago
[flagged]

racional 3y ago

That October 7th? For basically the entire rest of world at this point - that day is now unfortunately much more strongly identified with the start of the genocidal campaign begun by the IDF (apparently with logistical support from Google) almost immediately thereafter. Which has unfortunately dwarfed the atrocities committed by Hamas on that day in both scope and intent. Flag all you want. I am simply pointing out the fact that the net result of Israel's response to events of that day has been to create an enduring public relations disaster for itself (which will take decades to recover from), and to serve as a platform for an equally robust and enduring recruiting campaign for Hamas. This is very obviously why people are saying "criticism has intensified since October 7th". Not because the criticisms are tied to the events of the day, as such.

klyrs 3y ago

Likewise, I started getting real critical of Islamophobia in the US on the very day of 9/11. We are judged, not in how we act on the best of days, but how we act on the worst of days. The events of 9/11 didn't make me love Islam or its adherents. But the way the american public, press, and politicians responded to the events awoke me to the dehumanizing view that many hold towards them. It's no different here. Israel has long held their boot to the neck of Palestinians while funding Hamas; but now they play the victim and use that to justify genocide because the inevitable happened.

mikrotikker 3y ago
There is no genocide.
- ycombinatrix 3y ago
  There is no war in Ba Sing Se

yencabulator 3y ago

Perhaps it's just that increased awareness brings a larger audience, and not related to the specific cause for the increased awareness.

protomolecule 3y ago

"massacre of thousands of civilians initiated by Hamas" Well, it is Israel who is killing thousands of civilians. Hamas was stopped at approximately one thousand, but there is no one to stop Israel.