5 ms·

Nice. A simultaneous conflation of law with ethics, an appeal to others' immorality as a way to justify your own, and an appeal to corporations only being held

Nice. A simultaneous conflation of law with ethics, an appeal to others' immorality as a way to justify your own, and an appeal to corporations only being held to the fiscal rationale ethics system, which is to say, none.

mattmaroon 2y ago
No conflating, ethics are subjective, laws are not. (Or at least, close to not.) One can't build a system on non-codified ethics because they change so much and vary from place to place. Our own legal system has plenty of ethical issues. We lock up almost 5x as many people per capita as China. Should they not do business with us? If corporations stopped doing business with any country someone on HN found to be doing something unethical, we'd all go back to the economic stone age. There's no real argument here, your sentiments are just "big company bad, China bad" with more words.
- spywaregorilla 2y ago
  I haven't said anything about China or any company. Compliance with laws is not ethically relevant. You are trying to justify unethical behavior with appeals to pragmatism or "fairness" with whatabout appeals to other countries. Which maybe you believe, but it is cowardly and manipulative to imply that the behavior is not unethical because you think it should be done anyway. That's just modern evil 101.
  - mattmaroon 2y ago
    You are putting a whole lot of words in my mouth that aren’t there. And we were discussing something that happens in China, so I was giving you credit (unfairly, apparently) for having any point at all. I’ll discontinue this since it’s merely off-topic, nonsensical ad hominems.
    - spywaregorilla 2y ago
      Ok great let's be explicit and cite your own stupid words You believe that Apple should follow a law that is unethical. evidence: > I obviously don’t agree with China’s censorship You believe this is ok though because other countries have bad laws sometimes. evidence: > they can point out lots of poor human rights abuses on our end yet Chinese companies are expected to follow our laws here too. > Our own legal system has plenty of ethical issues. We lock up almost 5x as many people per capita as China. Should they not do business with us? You also believe it's ok to do this because it's practical evidence: > Apple is just doing what any rational actor would, obeying the laws of recognized governments, and I don’t think it’s fair to expect them to do more. If the American people care that much about the free speech of Chinese citizens it’s a matter for our government, not our corporations. > If corporations stopped doing business with any country someone on HN found to be doing something unethical, we'd all go back to the economic stone age. pathetic
      - mattmaroon 2y ago
        What’s pathetic is that you think your third grade level of reasoning on the topic makes you morally superior. It doesn’t. It just makes you a buffoon. Every government requires corporations (and thus people) to do things I think are unethical. All of them. I still expect foreign ones to follow our laws, and us theirs, because to not do so is also unethical. It’s not the role of a corporation to fight every battle. Apple shouldn’t tank a trillion dollar company (their profits come entirely from things manufactured in China) to fight removing two more apps. A lot of livelihoods in both countries might be lost over something that makes no difference, which itself could be considered ethical. The world isn’t as simple as you are. And you’d remove those apps in two seconds if Apple were dumb enough to put you in charge.
        spywaregorilla 2y ago
        > Every government requires corporations (and thus people) to do things I think are unethical. Great, we agree you believe you should follow an unethical law. > All of them. I still expect foreign ones to follow our laws, and us theirs, because to not do so is also unethical. Great, we agree that you justify it as not unethical because its the law / practical / what others do. You are justifying actions as something you think should be done, and reasoning that because you want it to be done, that it must not be unethical. Justifying evil because you think it is worth it is one thing. Concluding that evil is not evil because you think it is worth it is the scum of society.

mattmaroon 2y ago

No conflating, ethics are subjective, laws are not. (Or at least, close to not.) One can't build a system on non-codified ethics because they change so much and vary from place to place. Our own legal system has plenty of ethical issues. We lock up almost 5x as many people per capita as China. Should they not do business with us? If corporations stopped doing business with any country someone on HN found to be doing something unethical, we'd all go back to the economic stone age. There's no real argument here, your sentiments are just "big company bad, China bad" with more words.

spywaregorilla 2y ago
I haven't said anything about China or any company. Compliance with laws is not ethically relevant. You are trying to justify unethical behavior with appeals to pragmatism or "fairness" with whatabout appeals to other countries. Which maybe you believe, but it is cowardly and manipulative to imply that the behavior is not unethical because you think it should be done anyway. That's just modern evil 101.
- mattmaroon 2y ago
  You are putting a whole lot of words in my mouth that aren’t there. And we were discussing something that happens in China, so I was giving you credit (unfairly, apparently) for having any point at all. I’ll discontinue this since it’s merely off-topic, nonsensical ad hominems.
  - spywaregorilla 2y ago
    Ok great let's be explicit and cite your own stupid words You believe that Apple should follow a law that is unethical. evidence: > I obviously don’t agree with China’s censorship You believe this is ok though because other countries have bad laws sometimes. evidence: > they can point out lots of poor human rights abuses on our end yet Chinese companies are expected to follow our laws here too. > Our own legal system has plenty of ethical issues. We lock up almost 5x as many people per capita as China. Should they not do business with us? You also believe it's ok to do this because it's practical evidence: > Apple is just doing what any rational actor would, obeying the laws of recognized governments, and I don’t think it’s fair to expect them to do more. If the American people care that much about the free speech of Chinese citizens it’s a matter for our government, not our corporations. > If corporations stopped doing business with any country someone on HN found to be doing something unethical, we'd all go back to the economic stone age. pathetic
    - mattmaroon 2y ago
      What’s pathetic is that you think your third grade level of reasoning on the topic makes you morally superior. It doesn’t. It just makes you a buffoon. Every government requires corporations (and thus people) to do things I think are unethical. All of them. I still expect foreign ones to follow our laws, and us theirs, because to not do so is also unethical. It’s not the role of a corporation to fight every battle. Apple shouldn’t tank a trillion dollar company (their profits come entirely from things manufactured in China) to fight removing two more apps. A lot of livelihoods in both countries might be lost over something that makes no difference, which itself could be considered ethical. The world isn’t as simple as you are. And you’d remove those apps in two seconds if Apple were dumb enough to put you in charge.
      - spywaregorilla 2y ago
        > Every government requires corporations (and thus people) to do things I think are unethical. Great, we agree you believe you should follow an unethical law. > All of them. I still expect foreign ones to follow our laws, and us theirs, because to not do so is also unethical. Great, we agree that you justify it as not unethical because its the law / practical / what others do. You are justifying actions as something you think should be done, and reasoning that because you want it to be done, that it must not be unethical. Justifying evil because you think it is worth it is one thing. Concluding that evil is not evil because you think it is worth it is the scum of society.