4 ms·

I'm surprised they don't use some form of hardware based RNG. I assume there's many good reasons https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardware_random_number_generator

by alickz 2y ago

I'm surprised they don't use some form of hardware based RNG. I assume there's many good reasons https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardware_random_number_generator https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardware_random_number_generat...

eru 2y ago
They wanted to show that they didn't cheat. In general, you can pick a random seed at the start of the day, commit to it somewhere (eg publish a hash of it on the bitcoin blockchain, or just on your website), then use that seed in a cryptographically secure PRNG on your website all day, and at the end of the day you publish the seed you already committed to. This way people can check that you didn't cheat, but can't guess their opponents cards either.
- eru 2y ago
  (The above was simplified. In a game of poker, you also want to make sure that when hands get folded, that no one learns what the cards were.)
- thenewnewguy 2y ago
  Wouldn't the most obvious method of cheating be the site owner peeking at other player's hands and/or the deck? Which this doesn't (and cannot) prevent? I guess I'm not sure what publicizing their PRNG is meant to prove. It shows they didn't cheat via a very specific type of cheating but there are several other potential cheating vectors.
  - eru 2y ago
    > It shows they didn't cheat via a very specific type of cheating but there are several other potential cheating vectors. Yes, and this is not the only anti-cheat method they had.
logtempo 2y ago
https://www.random.org/ https://www.random.org/
- mikegreenberg 2y ago
  Or, if you don't want to trust the source, https://drand.love/ https://drand.love/
Elucalidavah 2y ago
> don't use some form of hardware based RNG I've always wondered: why aren't ADCs (e.g. mic input) and temperature sensors considered a good source of entropy, particularly if the lower bits are taken?
- eru 2y ago
  If you just want any old entropy, and don't care about proving to someone else that your entropy is good, these are acceptable. But it's honestly really easy to get entropy on that grate, and thanks to modern cryptographically secure PRNG, you don't need a lot of 'real' entropy. You can stretch it out forever. If you want/need to be able to argue to a third party that your entropy was good, you can spend a bit more. How do you convince anyone that your mic input was actual real mic input, and not just a sequence of bits you made up to be convenient for you?

by alickz 2y ago

eru 2y ago

They wanted to show that they didn't cheat. In general, you can pick a random seed at the start of the day, commit to it somewhere (eg publish a hash of it on the bitcoin blockchain, or just on your website), then use that seed in a cryptographically secure PRNG on your website all day, and at the end of the day you publish the seed you already committed to. This way people can check that you didn't cheat, but can't guess their opponents cards either.

eru 2y ago
(The above was simplified. In a game of poker, you also want to make sure that when hands get folded, that no one learns what the cards were.)
thenewnewguy 2y ago
Wouldn't the most obvious method of cheating be the site owner peeking at other player's hands and/or the deck? Which this doesn't (and cannot) prevent? I guess I'm not sure what publicizing their PRNG is meant to prove. It shows they didn't cheat via a very specific type of cheating but there are several other potential cheating vectors.
- eru 2y ago
  > It shows they didn't cheat via a very specific type of cheating but there are several other potential cheating vectors. Yes, and this is not the only anti-cheat method they had.

logtempo 2y ago

https://www.random.org/ https://www.random.org/

mikegreenberg 2y ago
Or, if you don't want to trust the source, https://drand.love/ https://drand.love/

Elucalidavah 2y ago

> don't use some form of hardware based RNG I've always wondered: why aren't ADCs (e.g. mic input) and temperature sensors considered a good source of entropy, particularly if the lower bits are taken?

eru 2y ago
If you just want any old entropy, and don't care about proving to someone else that your entropy is good, these are acceptable. But it's honestly really easy to get entropy on that grate, and thanks to modern cryptographically secure PRNG, you don't need a lot of 'real' entropy. You can stretch it out forever. If you want/need to be able to argue to a third party that your entropy was good, you can spend a bit more. How do you convince anyone that your mic input was actual real mic input, and not just a sequence of bits you made up to be convenient for you?