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>> In music it’s widely accepted that it takes years of practice to become skilled with an instrument Some of the music I listened to growing up, that I still

>> In music it’s widely accepted that it takes years of practice to become skilled with an instrument Some of the music I listened to growing up, that I still listen to, was made by people who were complete neophytes with their instruments. So I reject your premise, and I reject your attempt at gatekeeping. >> I think we need to take seriously how hard it is to do good programming work. Algorithms, data structures, math, performance optimisation, distributed systems, graphics & shaders, large system design - any one of these skills takes years to properly master If there are any programmer kids out there, don't listen to this stuff. I mean that seriously. This is just gatekeeping. If you're a smart kid who wants to learn to code, you can do that, and you can be writing code in no time. If you're a smart kid who wants to play music, you can do that in no time. Don't listen to the gatekeepers. They are compromised. They have conflicts of interest.

swatcoder 3y ago
I'm not sure that saying a world of sophistication and capability opens up with practice, or that people have broadly lost sight of it, is the same as gatekeeping. I was one of those kids you're calling out to and I'm glad I had the opportunity to just dig in, but I'm far better at what I do after decades of practice. The same is true in each of the numerous other skills and crafts I've pursued in that time. You can write code in no time, but you really are going to only become continually better at it if you embrace organized, reflective, and regular practice of some kind.
- int_19h 3y ago
  Speaking as another one of "those kids", I disagree. I became better by doing things, sure, but it was not in any sense an "organized and reflective" practice. It was... just doing things and reading about things because it was fun and interesting (and, eventually, because it paid). But not by deliberately exercising. Regular, yeah, I'll give you that. Any skill gets better with practice.
  - josephg 3y ago
    Nobody is claiming that practice needs to be boring. “Practice” is just a name for the time you spend playing around at the edge of your ability.
    - int_19h 3y ago
      "Organized and reflective" were the specific words used, and I disagree on both.
lotsoweiners 3y ago
He’s not talking about “smart kids”. He’s talking about the dumb dumbs who are being told “learn to code by going to our boot camp and make six figures”. Expectations absolutely have to be managed.
musicale 3y ago
> Some of the music I listened to growing up, that I still listen to, was made by people who were complete neophytes with their instruments. I think it depends on the instrument, the type of music, and the ensemble. Punk band? Sure. Symphony orchestra? Probably not. Which isn't to say that one is objectively better or worse than the other. Lots of people enjoy both.
sevagh 3y ago
You're 100% correct. So many stories of very successful musicians (metal guitarists, etc.) that have a knack for making music people like. I view this thing as a "skill-reward" ratio. If you're a mediocre guitarist and your band has sold platinum records, you're a complete champion. You translated X mechanical skill to Y real-world impact and success. If you're a superb technical guitarist and nobody listens to your music, you have nothing to contribute. People over focus on the minutiae and lose sight of the thing itself. Musicianship over music.
josephg 3y ago
I’m sorry you hear my comment as championing gatekeeping. That’s not my point at all. I want to champion spending time to slowly get good at things. Celebrate all the people who didn’t put out a hit single the first time they picked up a guitar. I think we only get really good at programming if we put the time in for years. Of course I want more beginners programming. How else would they become experts? Years of practice happen one day at a time. I was one of those kids you’re talking about, who learned programming on my own from about the age of 9. That was 30 years ago, and I’ve gotten a lot better at it since then. Sometimes I talk to people who have less experience than I do, and I’ve seen the life go out of peoples eyes when they think they aren’t as “talented” as I am. Hah! You see me now, but you don’t see the 30 years of work I’ve put in to get here! I think this whole “neophytes can do anything” philosophy of yours is toxic, because people assume that if you’re good at programming, you were born good at programming. If they weren’t born like that, they feel inadequate and attack themselves. You’re wrong. That’s not how it works. It’s great that someone can throw together a website in your first week of a bootcamp. Welcome to the starting line. Maybe that’s enough to start a successful business. But that’s not a sign you’re an expert yet. And thank goodness for that! As piano is teaching me all over again, watching yourself improve slowly over years of practice is a truly wonderful experience. An expert at programming can make a website - sure. Or they can edit the code in their web browser. Or write their own webpack, or react. Or invent a new programming language and compile it to webassembly. Or write an http2 proxy to make their page go faster. Or 1000 other weird things. How cool is that! Why on earth would you make expertise into a dirty word? Seriously - what’s wrong with people.

swatcoder 3y ago

I'm not sure that saying a world of sophistication and capability opens up with practice, or that people have broadly lost sight of it, is the same as gatekeeping. I was one of those kids you're calling out to and I'm glad I had the opportunity to just dig in, but I'm far better at what I do after decades of practice. The same is true in each of the numerous other skills and crafts I've pursued in that time. You can write code in no time, but you really are going to only become continually better at it if you embrace organized, reflective, and regular practice of some kind.

int_19h 3y ago
Speaking as another one of "those kids", I disagree. I became better by doing things, sure, but it was not in any sense an "organized and reflective" practice. It was... just doing things and reading about things because it was fun and interesting (and, eventually, because it paid). But not by deliberately exercising. Regular, yeah, I'll give you that. Any skill gets better with practice.
- josephg 3y ago
  Nobody is claiming that practice needs to be boring. “Practice” is just a name for the time you spend playing around at the edge of your ability.
  - int_19h 3y ago
    "Organized and reflective" were the specific words used, and I disagree on both.

lotsoweiners 3y ago

He’s not talking about “smart kids”. He’s talking about the dumb dumbs who are being told “learn to code by going to our boot camp and make six figures”. Expectations absolutely have to be managed.

musicale 3y ago

> Some of the music I listened to growing up, that I still listen to, was made by people who were complete neophytes with their instruments. I think it depends on the instrument, the type of music, and the ensemble. Punk band? Sure. Symphony orchestra? Probably not. Which isn't to say that one is objectively better or worse than the other. Lots of people enjoy both.

sevagh 3y ago

You're 100% correct. So many stories of very successful musicians (metal guitarists, etc.) that have a knack for making music people like. I view this thing as a "skill-reward" ratio. If you're a mediocre guitarist and your band has sold platinum records, you're a complete champion. You translated X mechanical skill to Y real-world impact and success. If you're a superb technical guitarist and nobody listens to your music, you have nothing to contribute. People over focus on the minutiae and lose sight of the thing itself. Musicianship over music.

josephg 3y ago

I’m sorry you hear my comment as championing gatekeeping. That’s not my point at all. I want to champion spending time to slowly get good at things. Celebrate all the people who didn’t put out a hit single the first time they picked up a guitar. I think we only get really good at programming if we put the time in for years. Of course I want more beginners programming. How else would they become experts? Years of practice happen one day at a time. I was one of those kids you’re talking about, who learned programming on my own from about the age of 9. That was 30 years ago, and I’ve gotten a lot better at it since then. Sometimes I talk to people who have less experience than I do, and I’ve seen the life go out of peoples eyes when they think they aren’t as “talented” as I am. Hah! You see me now, but you don’t see the 30 years of work I’ve put in to get here! I think this whole “neophytes can do anything” philosophy of yours is toxic, because people assume that if you’re good at programming, you were born good at programming. If they weren’t born like that, they feel inadequate and attack themselves. You’re wrong. That’s not how it works. It’s great that someone can throw together a website in your first week of a bootcamp. Welcome to the starting line. Maybe that’s enough to start a successful business. But that’s not a sign you’re an expert yet. And thank goodness for that! As piano is teaching me all over again, watching yourself improve slowly over years of practice is a truly wonderful experience. An expert at programming can make a website - sure. Or they can edit the code in their web browser. Or write their own webpack, or react. Or invent a new programming language and compile it to webassembly. Or write an http2 proxy to make their page go faster. Or 1000 other weird things. How cool is that! Why on earth would you make expertise into a dirty word? Seriously - what’s wrong with people.