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The claim that suburbs are fiscally unsustainable is dubious. When asked for evidence it appears a video seems to be the source for the claim. With appropriate

by sien 2y ago

The claim that suburbs are fiscally unsustainable is dubious. When asked for evidence it appears a video seems to be the source for the claim. With appropriate land taxes suburbs can be happily fiscally sustainable. Oddly, the claim is usually made by people who say that public transport is necessary and rarely comment on the fiscal sustainability of public transport. Other than Amtrak, which counts subsidies as revenue, not transit system in the US has a farebox recovery ratio of above 55% and most are around 20-30% . https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farebox_recovery_ratio https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farebox_recovery_ratio This was also before Covid and the dramatic rise of WFH. In the US and much of the developed world transit use is down by at least a quarter due to increased WFH. This is making US transit systems even more fiscally unsustainable.

stetrain 2y ago
I think the biggest issue is suburbs within commuter range of urban centers. The residents of the suburbs pay local taxes to the suburb for their local infrastructure. In the morning, a decent chunk of them get in their cars and drive into the city. The roads that need constant expansion, upgrades, and repair are the ones in the city or between the city and the suburb. The suburb residents vote against things that might cost them money but reduce the burden on roads not paid for by the suburbs. Yes, commuting has dropped, but it’s not gone. The major highways between my suburb and the nearby city are still constantly clogged and forever under construction.
- lotsoweiners 2y ago
  Blame the companies, government agencies, and anyone else mandating RTO and other outmoded forms of work. Plenty of companies are fleeing downtown for office parks in the suburbs as their lease expires. We will see how sustainable some of these downtown businesses (restaurants, coffee shops, bars, stores) are once the money from suburban commuters dries up.
  - stetrain 2y ago
    In my experience "suburb" towns that have variety of density, including a dense town core, have more variety of healthy local stores and restaurants as well. It's hard to run a local restaurant when the houses are all evenly spread out and going out to dinner means a 30 minute car drive. Thus the proliferation of chain franchises in these areas.
    - jjav 2y ago
      > It's hard to run a local restaurant when the houses are all evenly spread out and going out to dinner means a 30 minute car drive. Can you point me at a few suburbs (not out in the wilderness) where it actually takes a 30 minute car drive to get to a restaurant? I have difficulty picturing that such a place exists, but maybe I'm wrong.
dghlsakjg 2y ago
How much do the road systems recover from driver usage fees?
- simoncion 2y ago
  Yup. > ...[no] transit system in the US has a farebox recovery ratio of above 55% and most are around 20-30% . There are a tiny handful of roads in the country that bother to even attempt to recover their operating costs. Overall, I'd bet that the road system in the US has a "farebox recovery rate" of low single-digits at absolute best. That doesn't mean we should shut it down. Publicly-accessible transit systems are a public good... one that delivers far more value than can be easily accounted for.
  - dghlsakjg 2y ago
    I would be shocked if toll fees covered 1% of road costs in the US. I can’t even remember the last time I paid a toll.
    - Tostino 2y ago
      To be fair, you are paying the "toll" each time you fill up (in the form of gas taxes).
      - simoncion 2y ago
        In the US, those taxes don't come anywhere near even artillery range of paying for road maintenance, construction, and various road-support services.
      - dghlsakjg 2y ago
        And as a bus rider I pay the fare every time I pay taxes by that logic. As a side question: when I buy gasoline for my backup generator am I paying the 'toll' for that generator to drive on the road?
- sien 2y ago

by sien 2y ago

stetrain 2y ago

I think the biggest issue is suburbs within commuter range of urban centers. The residents of the suburbs pay local taxes to the suburb for their local infrastructure. In the morning, a decent chunk of them get in their cars and drive into the city. The roads that need constant expansion, upgrades, and repair are the ones in the city or between the city and the suburb. The suburb residents vote against things that might cost them money but reduce the burden on roads not paid for by the suburbs. Yes, commuting has dropped, but it’s not gone. The major highways between my suburb and the nearby city are still constantly clogged and forever under construction.

lotsoweiners 2y ago
Blame the companies, government agencies, and anyone else mandating RTO and other outmoded forms of work. Plenty of companies are fleeing downtown for office parks in the suburbs as their lease expires. We will see how sustainable some of these downtown businesses (restaurants, coffee shops, bars, stores) are once the money from suburban commuters dries up.
- stetrain 2y ago
  In my experience "suburb" towns that have variety of density, including a dense town core, have more variety of healthy local stores and restaurants as well. It's hard to run a local restaurant when the houses are all evenly spread out and going out to dinner means a 30 minute car drive. Thus the proliferation of chain franchises in these areas.
  - jjav 2y ago
    > It's hard to run a local restaurant when the houses are all evenly spread out and going out to dinner means a 30 minute car drive. Can you point me at a few suburbs (not out in the wilderness) where it actually takes a 30 minute car drive to get to a restaurant? I have difficulty picturing that such a place exists, but maybe I'm wrong.

dghlsakjg 2y ago

How much do the road systems recover from driver usage fees?

simoncion 2y ago
Yup. > ...[no] transit system in the US has a farebox recovery ratio of above 55% and most are around 20-30% . There are a tiny handful of roads in the country that bother to even attempt to recover their operating costs. Overall, I'd bet that the road system in the US has a "farebox recovery rate" of low single-digits at absolute best. That doesn't mean we should shut it down. Publicly-accessible transit systems are a public good... one that delivers far more value than can be easily accounted for.
- dghlsakjg 2y ago
  I would be shocked if toll fees covered 1% of road costs in the US. I can’t even remember the last time I paid a toll.
  - Tostino 2y ago
    To be fair, you are paying the "toll" each time you fill up (in the form of gas taxes).
    - simoncion 2y ago
      In the US, those taxes don't come anywhere near even artillery range of paying for road maintenance, construction, and various road-support services.
    - dghlsakjg 2y ago
      And as a bus rider I pay the fare every time I pay taxes by that logic. As a side question: when I buy gasoline for my backup generator am I paying the 'toll' for that generator to drive on the road?
sien 2y ago