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Apprentice plumbers get paid because they do economically valuable work. As someone learning to code you're not doing anything valuable so you don't get paid.

Apprentice plumbers get paid because they do economically valuable work. As someone learning to code you're not doing anything valuable so you don't get paid. The reason why coding pays so well is because it's IQ-gated in a way that plumbing isn't. An 80 IQ person can be a competent plumber but couldn't do well in most coding jobs.

beezlebroxxxxxx 3y ago
> The reason why coding pays so well is because it's IQ-gated in a way that plumbing isn't. Uh, what? I was with you until that part. Coding pays so well because the operating costs are low and the returns/profits are enormous for companies. Tech companies are "cheap" in a way other companies can't be. IQ doesn't really have much to do with it. I know plumbers who are technically brilliant and I know very well paid coders who regularly say things that make me question their intelligence.
- nwiswell 3y ago
  > Coding pays so well because the operating costs are low and the returns/profits are enormous for companies. Unrelated. Coding pays well because of the tight labor supply compared to the demand. Companies NEVER direct excess value to labor. Extracting surplus value from labor is sorta the whole deal with capitalism. > I know plumbers who are technically brilliant Also not relevant. The argument is that it isn't necessary to be brilliant in order to be a competent plumber, not that it would actually preclude you. > I know very well paid coders who regularly say things that make me question their intelligence. Do you think that's actually a good measure of intelligence? How are you normalizing it against the population, people you don't work with, and/or plumbers generally? The question to ask is, "taking a random sample of persons having 80 IQ, half of whom intend to pursue a career in software and half who intend to pursue a career in plumbing, what is the relative success rate (for some reasonable measure of 'success')?"
strix_varius 3y ago
"IQ-gated?" Please, let's not be so self congratulatory. The plumber who works on my house is easily as smart as I am. A successful software engineering career has brought me financial independence but I'm not particularly brilliant. Most of the folks I've worked with in FAANG aren't either. We're just normal people making a living during a very lucky period for a specific type of nerd.
- atleastoptimal 3y ago
  Most people who work in engineering and science tend to be more intelligent than those who work in blue-collar jobs. Exceptions do not invalidate this general trend. The fact that most tech job interviews are questions that are as close as possible to a live IQ-test further supports this premise. There is a premium on abstract reasoning that limits the number of people who can be successful software engineers, especially at places that pay a lot (FAANG, etc.) To ignore this fact is nice sounding but generally wishful thinking.
  - nunez 3y ago
    That is definitely not true. The trades are hard as shit and dealing with the "standards" vs reality situations that they deal with day in day out is exhausting just to read.
    - atleastoptimal 3y ago
      They are hard and there are many smart people working in the trades. I am not disagreeing with this premise. It is still difficult to outright deny the general intelligence gap between those who work in manual labor/trades jobs and those who work in STEM professions. Of course there are different types of intelligence. There are figures starting on page 80 in this document that support this claim: https://gwern.net/doc/iq/ses/2002-hauser.pdf https://gwern.net/doc/iq/ses/2002-hauser.pdf
      - strix_varius 3y ago
        You're using data from 1944, based on fixed-pay government jobs, to support a claim that private sector software engineering is well-paid, in 2024, due to "IQ gating." The irony is hard to miss.
never_inline 3y ago
> The reason why coding pays so well is because it's IQ-gated in a way that plumbing isn't. An 80 IQ person can be a competent plumber but couldn't do well in most coding jobs. Most of the work we do is mundane. Lets not be dishonest.
- atleastoptimal 3y ago
  I agree, but that's true for every job.
justinclift 3y ago
Perhaps it's the smart tradies that like a job where they can knock off at the end of the day, and not have to think about it at all until the next day? And not be called in the middle of the night to fix broken stuff? That last item might not apply so well to plumbers specifically ("my shitter broke!"), but it does to most other trades. :)
Turing_Machine 3y ago
> An 80 IQ person can be a competent plumber That is wildly incorrect. This kind of snobbery toward the skilled trades needs to stop. Edit: https://quizlet.com/test/journeymans-plumbing-practice-test-707153420 https://quizlet.com/test/journeymans-plumbing-practice-test-... A person with an IQ of 80 is not going to pass that test. He might get a job as a gofer, cleaner, general dogsbody, and "dude who has to carry all the heavy shit" for a plumbing contractor, but that doesn't make him a plumber.
- atleastoptimal 3y ago
  https://gwern.net/doc/iq/ses/2002-hauser.pdf https://gwern.net/doc/iq/ses/2002-hauser.pdf Look at the chart on page 85 An IQ of around 80 or a little more is around the 25th percentile for a large portion of trades jobs.
  - Turing_Machine 3y ago
    You mean what they call "crafts occupations"? There again, you (and they) are making the mistake of lumping all of "those people" together. Someone with an IQ of 80 could probably be a decent drywaller or roofer, maybe a mediocre framing carpenter or painter. A good plumber or good electrician? Not a chance in hell.
rufus_foreman 3y ago
I hope you someday live somewhere where the plumber has an IQ of 80. You will be in a world of shit.
- atleastoptimal 3y ago
  I feel people implicitly massively underestimate the capabilities of someone with an IQ of 80. 10 percent of the population has an IQ of around 80 or lower. Are 10 percent of the population really so fundamentally incapable of being even a plumber with extensive training?
  - sokoloff 3y ago
    I think you might be over-estimating the skills of the bottom 10% (or under-estimating the skills needed to be a plumber). The US Army currently rejects applicants who score lower than 31 on the ASVAB (roughly 92 on the IQ scale, about 30th percentile). I’m pretty sure there are Army jobs that can be done with less need for intellect than that needed to be a plumber. I don’t think that the lowest 10% of the population is generally capable of being a plumber. They are capable of doing some of the work done by plumbing companies, but the plumbing code is lengthy, in large part because people’s lives are literally at stake and the actual plumber (the license-holder) has to keep that straight in their head, apply the relevant parts to the varied job site requirements, turn blueprints into working plumbing systems, etc. Plumbing is a lot more than remembering “shit flows downhill, don’t lick your fingers, Friday is payday.” Sample plumber exam: https://www.tests.com/practice/plumbing-practice-test https://www.tests.com/practice/plumbing-practice-test
elktown 3y ago
> The reason why coding pays so well is because it's IQ-gated in a way that plumbing isn't. Pretty rich by someone with a comment history littered with AI delusions: > AI will largely replace software developers very soon, along with most professions.* That doesn't strike me as a very intelligent take. * https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39822358 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39822358
- atleastoptimal 3y ago
  people are losing their jobs at a rapid rate now due to AI. People who can’t see the trends and think AI will simply stop improving, or that humans have some intractable capacity that no machine could ever replicate is very wishful thinking. My opinion is also shared by a lot of intelligent researchers (like Hinton). Is he deluded, as you put it?
  - elktown 3y ago
    > people are losing their jobs at a rapid rate now due to AI No, they aren't. > Is he deluded, as you put it? I don't know what each for your apostles has said. But anyone who claims that with just a hyped up LLM behind them is.

beezlebroxxxxxx 3y ago

> The reason why coding pays so well is because it's IQ-gated in a way that plumbing isn't. Uh, what? I was with you until that part. Coding pays so well because the operating costs are low and the returns/profits are enormous for companies. Tech companies are "cheap" in a way other companies can't be. IQ doesn't really have much to do with it. I know plumbers who are technically brilliant and I know very well paid coders who regularly say things that make me question their intelligence.

nwiswell 3y ago
> Coding pays so well because the operating costs are low and the returns/profits are enormous for companies. Unrelated. Coding pays well because of the tight labor supply compared to the demand. Companies NEVER direct excess value to labor. Extracting surplus value from labor is sorta the whole deal with capitalism. > I know plumbers who are technically brilliant Also not relevant. The argument is that it isn't necessary to be brilliant in order to be a competent plumber, not that it would actually preclude you. > I know very well paid coders who regularly say things that make me question their intelligence. Do you think that's actually a good measure of intelligence? How are you normalizing it against the population, people you don't work with, and/or plumbers generally? The question to ask is, "taking a random sample of persons having 80 IQ, half of whom intend to pursue a career in software and half who intend to pursue a career in plumbing, what is the relative success rate (for some reasonable measure of 'success')?"

strix_varius 3y ago

"IQ-gated?" Please, let's not be so self congratulatory. The plumber who works on my house is easily as smart as I am. A successful software engineering career has brought me financial independence but I'm not particularly brilliant. Most of the folks I've worked with in FAANG aren't either. We're just normal people making a living during a very lucky period for a specific type of nerd.

atleastoptimal 3y ago
Most people who work in engineering and science tend to be more intelligent than those who work in blue-collar jobs. Exceptions do not invalidate this general trend. The fact that most tech job interviews are questions that are as close as possible to a live IQ-test further supports this premise. There is a premium on abstract reasoning that limits the number of people who can be successful software engineers, especially at places that pay a lot (FAANG, etc.) To ignore this fact is nice sounding but generally wishful thinking.
- nunez 3y ago
  That is definitely not true. The trades are hard as shit and dealing with the "standards" vs reality situations that they deal with day in day out is exhausting just to read.
  - atleastoptimal 3y ago
    They are hard and there are many smart people working in the trades. I am not disagreeing with this premise. It is still difficult to outright deny the general intelligence gap between those who work in manual labor/trades jobs and those who work in STEM professions. Of course there are different types of intelligence. There are figures starting on page 80 in this document that support this claim: https://gwern.net/doc/iq/ses/2002-hauser.pdf https://gwern.net/doc/iq/ses/2002-hauser.pdf
    - strix_varius 3y ago
      You're using data from 1944, based on fixed-pay government jobs, to support a claim that private sector software engineering is well-paid, in 2024, due to "IQ gating." The irony is hard to miss.

never_inline 3y ago

> The reason why coding pays so well is because it's IQ-gated in a way that plumbing isn't. An 80 IQ person can be a competent plumber but couldn't do well in most coding jobs. Most of the work we do is mundane. Lets not be dishonest.

atleastoptimal 3y ago
I agree, but that's true for every job.

justinclift 3y ago

Perhaps it's the smart tradies that like a job where they can knock off at the end of the day, and not have to think about it at all until the next day? And not be called in the middle of the night to fix broken stuff? That last item might not apply so well to plumbers specifically ("my shitter broke!"), but it does to most other trades. :)

Turing_Machine 3y ago

> An 80 IQ person can be a competent plumber That is wildly incorrect. This kind of snobbery toward the skilled trades needs to stop. Edit: https://quizlet.com/test/journeymans-plumbing-practice-test-707153420 https://quizlet.com/test/journeymans-plumbing-practice-test-... A person with an IQ of 80 is not going to pass that test. He might get a job as a gofer, cleaner, general dogsbody, and "dude who has to carry all the heavy shit" for a plumbing contractor, but that doesn't make him a plumber.

atleastoptimal 3y ago
https://gwern.net/doc/iq/ses/2002-hauser.pdf https://gwern.net/doc/iq/ses/2002-hauser.pdf Look at the chart on page 85 An IQ of around 80 or a little more is around the 25th percentile for a large portion of trades jobs.
- Turing_Machine 3y ago
  You mean what they call "crafts occupations"? There again, you (and they) are making the mistake of lumping all of "those people" together. Someone with an IQ of 80 could probably be a decent drywaller or roofer, maybe a mediocre framing carpenter or painter. A good plumber or good electrician? Not a chance in hell.

rufus_foreman 3y ago

I hope you someday live somewhere where the plumber has an IQ of 80. You will be in a world of shit.

atleastoptimal 3y ago
I feel people implicitly massively underestimate the capabilities of someone with an IQ of 80. 10 percent of the population has an IQ of around 80 or lower. Are 10 percent of the population really so fundamentally incapable of being even a plumber with extensive training?
- sokoloff 3y ago
  I think you might be over-estimating the skills of the bottom 10% (or under-estimating the skills needed to be a plumber). The US Army currently rejects applicants who score lower than 31 on the ASVAB (roughly 92 on the IQ scale, about 30th percentile). I’m pretty sure there are Army jobs that can be done with less need for intellect than that needed to be a plumber. I don’t think that the lowest 10% of the population is generally capable of being a plumber. They are capable of doing some of the work done by plumbing companies, but the plumbing code is lengthy, in large part because people’s lives are literally at stake and the actual plumber (the license-holder) has to keep that straight in their head, apply the relevant parts to the varied job site requirements, turn blueprints into working plumbing systems, etc. Plumbing is a lot more than remembering “shit flows downhill, don’t lick your fingers, Friday is payday.” Sample plumber exam: https://www.tests.com/practice/plumbing-practice-test https://www.tests.com/practice/plumbing-practice-test

elktown 3y ago

> The reason why coding pays so well is because it's IQ-gated in a way that plumbing isn't. Pretty rich by someone with a comment history littered with AI delusions: > AI will largely replace software developers very soon, along with most professions.* That doesn't strike me as a very intelligent take. * https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39822358 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39822358

atleastoptimal 3y ago
people are losing their jobs at a rapid rate now due to AI. People who can’t see the trends and think AI will simply stop improving, or that humans have some intractable capacity that no machine could ever replicate is very wishful thinking. My opinion is also shared by a lot of intelligent researchers (like Hinton). Is he deluded, as you put it?
- elktown 3y ago
  > people are losing their jobs at a rapid rate now due to AI No, they aren't. > Is he deluded, as you put it? I don't know what each for your apostles has said. But anyone who claims that with just a hyped up LLM behind them is.