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But they aren't even vaguely the same thing. Apprentice plumbers (1) get paid and (2) typically spend years as an apprentice, not weeks or months. This is for

But they aren't even vaguely the same thing. Apprentice plumbers (1) get paid and (2) typically spend years as an apprentice, not weeks or months. This is for a career averaging $60-80k. Contrast that with tech bootcamps that often approximate the cost of computer science degrees and promise (or intimate) that students will jump into six figure salaries. It's not the same at all.

Dalewyn 2y ago
>Apprentice plumbers (1) get paid and (2) typically spend years as an apprentice, not weeks or months. This is for a career averaging $60-80k. Also important to note that if you get paid (a proper wage) while apprenticing, you're quite lucky already. There are plenty of occupations with apprenticeships where you do not get paid until you've got your foot firmly in the hallway past the door. For example, anything related to becoming a chef: You're going to start by washing dishes for months if not years and no you will not get paid beyond maybe minimum wage.
- em-bee 2y ago
  i don't believe that washing dishes is the start of a cooks apprentice ship. the story from a dishwasher to the owner of a restaurant is not the average career of a cook. as far as i know you can start in a cooking school and then begin working as a line cook, and work yourself up from there. washing dishes is a minimum wage job for people without any training, and they are not learning to cook while washing dishes either.
- parineum 2y ago
  > Also important to note that if you get paid (a proper wage) while apprenticing, you're quite lucky already. >There are plenty of occupations with apprenticeships where you do not get paid until you've got your foot firmly in the hallway past the door. For example, anything related A good friend of mine was an apprentice union welder when we were younger. His hourly wage was quite good at that time, easily comparable to my tech wage with around the same experience. However, because of the union seniority, whenever there were work shortages, he was the first one cut. He'd regularly spend 1/4 to 1/3 of the year unemployed.
atleastoptimal 2y ago
Apprentice plumbers get paid because they do economically valuable work. As someone learning to code you're not doing anything valuable so you don't get paid. The reason why coding pays so well is because it's IQ-gated in a way that plumbing isn't. An 80 IQ person can be a competent plumber but couldn't do well in most coding jobs.
- beezlebroxxxxxx 2y ago
  > The reason why coding pays so well is because it's IQ-gated in a way that plumbing isn't. Uh, what? I was with you until that part. Coding pays so well because the operating costs are low and the returns/profits are enormous for companies. Tech companies are "cheap" in a way other companies can't be. IQ doesn't really have much to do with it. I know plumbers who are technically brilliant and I know very well paid coders who regularly say things that make me question their intelligence.
  - nwiswell 2y ago
    > Coding pays so well because the operating costs are low and the returns/profits are enormous for companies. Unrelated. Coding pays well because of the tight labor supply compared to the demand. Companies NEVER direct excess value to labor. Extracting surplus value from labor is sorta the whole deal with capitalism. > I know plumbers who are technically brilliant Also not relevant. The argument is that it isn't necessary to be brilliant in order to be a competent plumber, not that it would actually preclude you. > I know very well paid coders who regularly say things that make me question their intelligence. Do you think that's actually a good measure of intelligence? How are you normalizing it against the population, people you don't work with, and/or plumbers generally? The question to ask is, "taking a random sample of persons having 80 IQ, half of whom intend to pursue a career in software and half who intend to pursue a career in plumbing, what is the relative success rate (for some reasonable measure of 'success')?"
- strix_varius 2y ago
  "IQ-gated?" Please, let's not be so self congratulatory. The plumber who works on my house is easily as smart as I am. A successful software engineering career has brought me financial independence but I'm not particularly brilliant. Most of the folks I've worked with in FAANG aren't either. We're just normal people making a living during a very lucky period for a specific type of nerd.

Dalewyn 2y ago

>Apprentice plumbers (1) get paid and (2) typically spend years as an apprentice, not weeks or months. This is for a career averaging $60-80k. Also important to note that if you get paid (a proper wage) while apprenticing, you're quite lucky already. There are plenty of occupations with apprenticeships where you do not get paid until you've got your foot firmly in the hallway past the door. For example, anything related to becoming a chef: You're going to start by washing dishes for months if not years and no you will not get paid beyond maybe minimum wage.

em-bee 2y ago
i don't believe that washing dishes is the start of a cooks apprentice ship. the story from a dishwasher to the owner of a restaurant is not the average career of a cook. as far as i know you can start in a cooking school and then begin working as a line cook, and work yourself up from there. washing dishes is a minimum wage job for people without any training, and they are not learning to cook while washing dishes either.
parineum 2y ago
> Also important to note that if you get paid (a proper wage) while apprenticing, you're quite lucky already. >There are plenty of occupations with apprenticeships where you do not get paid until you've got your foot firmly in the hallway past the door. For example, anything related A good friend of mine was an apprentice union welder when we were younger. His hourly wage was quite good at that time, easily comparable to my tech wage with around the same experience. However, because of the union seniority, whenever there were work shortages, he was the first one cut. He'd regularly spend 1/4 to 1/3 of the year unemployed.

atleastoptimal 2y ago

Apprentice plumbers get paid because they do economically valuable work. As someone learning to code you're not doing anything valuable so you don't get paid. The reason why coding pays so well is because it's IQ-gated in a way that plumbing isn't. An 80 IQ person can be a competent plumber but couldn't do well in most coding jobs.

beezlebroxxxxxx 2y ago
> The reason why coding pays so well is because it's IQ-gated in a way that plumbing isn't. Uh, what? I was with you until that part. Coding pays so well because the operating costs are low and the returns/profits are enormous for companies. Tech companies are "cheap" in a way other companies can't be. IQ doesn't really have much to do with it. I know plumbers who are technically brilliant and I know very well paid coders who regularly say things that make me question their intelligence.
- nwiswell 2y ago
  > Coding pays so well because the operating costs are low and the returns/profits are enormous for companies. Unrelated. Coding pays well because of the tight labor supply compared to the demand. Companies NEVER direct excess value to labor. Extracting surplus value from labor is sorta the whole deal with capitalism. > I know plumbers who are technically brilliant Also not relevant. The argument is that it isn't necessary to be brilliant in order to be a competent plumber, not that it would actually preclude you. > I know very well paid coders who regularly say things that make me question their intelligence. Do you think that's actually a good measure of intelligence? How are you normalizing it against the population, people you don't work with, and/or plumbers generally? The question to ask is, "taking a random sample of persons having 80 IQ, half of whom intend to pursue a career in software and half who intend to pursue a career in plumbing, what is the relative success rate (for some reasonable measure of 'success')?"
strix_varius 2y ago
"IQ-gated?" Please, let's not be so self congratulatory. The plumber who works on my house is easily as smart as I am. A successful software engineering career has brought me financial independence but I'm not particularly brilliant. Most of the folks I've worked with in FAANG aren't either. We're just normal people making a living during a very lucky period for a specific type of nerd.