4 ms·

Hey I’d love to hear more, if only you could provide something that backs up your claim.

by Isamu 2y ago

jampekka 2y ago
Here's the industry's claim. Of course, given the nature of the industry, it's probably misleading at best and intended to alter your thinking to align better with their interests. https://www.ana.net/content/show/id/37679 https://www.ana.net/content/show/id/37679
- smugglerFlynn 2y ago
  Just to be clear, what you claim is actually two things: - advertising is ~1/5th of US economy (backed with facts) - all advertising is brainwashing (your personal opinion)
  - spencerflem 2y ago
    That's the entire point, right? Pay money to an ad agency and they will affect the thoughts of your target demographic. Maybe its benign brainwashing, or you'd choose a different word because brainwashing has a lot of connotations. But that is factually what it's trying to do
    - card_zero 2y ago
      That's also factually what you're trying to do right now, and what I'm trying to do back at you, but maybe we should call it "communicating" in this instance. Because brainwashing has a lot of connotations. That don't apply. You see.
      - spencerflem 2y ago
        fine- here's two more ways it fits: advertising is non-consensual, almost everyone would rather not see ads and not internalize its ideas advertising is precise and scientific, it is done by powerful groups at large scale and truthfully, if this comment was part of an astroturfing campaign by an agency if have no problem calling it a brainwashing attempt. or call it something else, its all semantics. murder if you're mad, loss of life if you're not sort of thing
        card_zero 2y ago
        The article says "mind clearing and reprogramming" is the sense we all usually think of, and that doesn't apply to advertising, even if it's totally dishonest like astroturfing. So although we could agree to call it brainwashing now we've established what we mean, in conversation with a general audience, we shouldn't, because that would be misleading. But anyway, it's been nice brainwashing with you today, I'm glad we had this opportunity to brainwash each other.
        ninju 2y ago
        > advertising is non-consensual, almost everyone would rather not see ads and not internalize its ideas Advertising, by product producers, on media platforms serves a purpose of informing the customers of what is available for purchase. At times I will watch over the air TV, or other FAST streaming services, just to keep aware of what is new in the marketplaces
    - Fauntleroy 2y ago
      This loosens the definition of the word "brainwashing" so much that the term becomes meaningless.
      - explaininjs 2y ago
        https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/brainwashing https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/brainwashing: brainwashing - noun 1. a forcible indoctrination to induce someone to give up basic political, social, or religious beliefs and attitudes and to accept contrasting regimented ideas 2. persuasion by propaganda or salesmanship
        jklinger410 2y ago
        The colloquial definition is 1, not as much 2, which is where the semantic bickering will come in. Most people do not view being "convinced" as brainwashing. They see brainwashing as a sub-conscious activity. They view being convinced as a conscious one. I think this definition is too broad myself.
        jampekka 2y ago
        Modern advertising is very sub-conscious activity.
        jklinger410 2y ago
        When you talk about "modern advertising" I think you are referring to the large campaigns run by huge companies. There is a lot of lower level advertising that is very straightforward and honest.
      - spencerflem 2y ago
        I've added some more in a sibling comment, but I really don't think the methods used by advertisers are much different than state progapaganda or cults.
      - thiagoharry 2y ago
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - nonameiguess 2y ago
      Affecting the thoughts of other humans is close to the purpose of all inter-human communication. Consider the following cases: - Your neighbor knows you need a new table and their brother sells tables so they tell you about it and offer you a special deal. - Your daughter is an avowed pacifist who tries very hard to convince you that you should move your family to another country and stop paying taxes to one that is currently waging a war. - Your son really hates broccoli and pleads with you to make carrots for dinner side instead. - A company that makes packaged dessert foods pays theaters to covertly insert subliminal imagery into film reels designed to make viewers crave their food. - A group takes over a rural commune and recruits people from broken homes, convincing them to become sex slaves and take part in ritual suicide pacts over the course of many years of sophisticated psychological manipulation and isolation techniques. - A charistmatic totalitarian politician spends years on the stump gradually convinging a voting majority of what used to be a liberal democracy that directing all national production toward warfare, attempting to conquer their entire continent, and exterminating an entire race of nationless people is the only way forward for human progress. Are all of these activities morally equivalent? Does it make sense to call all of them by the same term? Or does that decrease, rather than increase, the usefulness with which we can discuss these kinds of things? That said, I can't disagree that 20% of a national economy being devoted to marketing and advertising seems unlikely to be a socially optimal allocation of economic activity.
      - spencerflem 2y ago
        yeah, fair. I posted in a sibling comment two more reasons imo. advertising fits with brainwashing, namely that it: Is done scientifically and at huge scale by powerful entities & is non-consentual, almost everyone would rather not see ads or internalize their ideas. (Coors beer is cool and if you drink it women will like you more, yuck, who wants to believe that) But yeah, you're right that just influencing thoughts is not the only part of the definition. And really past a certain point anything is impossible to define, so these arguments are always a little weird. Eg. I challenge you to give an airtight definition of what is a chair. Calling advertizment brainwashing is certainly a little provocative, & in my opinion perfectly correct given the scale and goals. But I can see how it can be annoying in retrospect. Glad we agree that spending that much on it is sad
  - jampekka 2y ago
    I find this dictionary definition quite fitting: "2. any method of controlled systematic indoctrination, especially one based on repetition or confusion" https://www.dictionary.com/browse/brainwashing https://www.dictionary.com/browse/brainwashing
    - card_zero 2y ago
      Then you didn't find definition 1 quite fitting.
      - jampekka 2y ago
        Not as snugly. "a method for systematically changing attitudes or altering beliefs," fits very well. "originated in totalitarian countries" not so much, and "especially through the use of torture, drugs, or psychological-stress techniques" very little, although it's an "especially", so not a required feature. The "originated in totalitarian countries" is a bit odd requirement for my taste. Of course, if one wants to use that definition, then by definition even "a method for systematically changing attitudes or altering beliefs the use of torture, drugs, or psychological-stress techniques" is not brainwashing if it doesn't originate from a country that is defined as totalitarian with some definition.
        spencerflem 2y ago
        yeah, I think in retrospect maybe part of the confusion is that some people's definition of brainwashing is only the torture/drugs definition, while mine and yours presumably has always included propaganda and other purely psychological means. But its hard to convince someone ads are brainwashing when to their mind its just completely obviously something else. In the end its all language games anyways when we hopefully should all be able to agree that it's a problem that 20% of the GDP to be spent trying to control our thoughts
        card_zero 2y ago
        Would you be OK with 1% of GDP? But would you really be OK with some authority deciding how much gets spent on it? Or is the amount not the real issue? There's an ad in the article itself: it was offering me 25% off a subscription to MIT Technology Review during Earth Week. I didn't ask to see that information. It was trying to get me to do something I wasn't very interested in. Is that advert part of the problem, or is it one you'd arbitrarily allow?

Hey I’d love to hear more, if only you could provide something that backs up your claim.

by Isamu 2y ago

Hey I’d love to hear more, if only you could provide something that backs up your claim.

Here's the industry's claim. Of course, given the nature of the industry, it's probably misleading at best and intended to alter your thinking to align better with their interests. https://www.ana.net/content/show/id/37679 https://www.ana.net/content/show/id/37679

smugglerFlynn 2y ago
Just to be clear, what you claim is actually two things: - advertising is ~1/5th of US economy (backed with facts) - all advertising is brainwashing (your personal opinion)
- spencerflem 2y ago
  That's the entire point, right? Pay money to an ad agency and they will affect the thoughts of your target demographic. Maybe its benign brainwashing, or you'd choose a different word because brainwashing has a lot of connotations. But that is factually what it's trying to do
  - card_zero 2y ago
    That's also factually what you're trying to do right now, and what I'm trying to do back at you, but maybe we should call it "communicating" in this instance. Because brainwashing has a lot of connotations. That don't apply. You see.
    - spencerflem 2y ago
      fine- here's two more ways it fits: advertising is non-consensual, almost everyone would rather not see ads and not internalize its ideas advertising is precise and scientific, it is done by powerful groups at large scale and truthfully, if this comment was part of an astroturfing campaign by an agency if have no problem calling it a brainwashing attempt. or call it something else, its all semantics. murder if you're mad, loss of life if you're not sort of thing
      - card_zero 2y ago
        The article says "mind clearing and reprogramming" is the sense we all usually think of, and that doesn't apply to advertising, even if it's totally dishonest like astroturfing. So although we could agree to call it brainwashing now we've established what we mean, in conversation with a general audience, we shouldn't, because that would be misleading. But anyway, it's been nice brainwashing with you today, I'm glad we had this opportunity to brainwash each other.
      - ninju 2y ago
        > advertising is non-consensual, almost everyone would rather not see ads and not internalize its ideas Advertising, by product producers, on media platforms serves a purpose of informing the customers of what is available for purchase. At times I will watch over the air TV, or other FAST streaming services, just to keep aware of what is new in the marketplaces
  - Fauntleroy 2y ago
    This loosens the definition of the word "brainwashing" so much that the term becomes meaningless.
    - explaininjs 2y ago
      https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/brainwashing https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/brainwashing: brainwashing - noun 1. a forcible indoctrination to induce someone to give up basic political, social, or religious beliefs and attitudes and to accept contrasting regimented ideas 2. persuasion by propaganda or salesmanship
      - jklinger410 2y ago
        The colloquial definition is 1, not as much 2, which is where the semantic bickering will come in. Most people do not view being "convinced" as brainwashing. They see brainwashing as a sub-conscious activity. They view being convinced as a conscious one. I think this definition is too broad myself.
        jampekka 2y ago
        Modern advertising is very sub-conscious activity.
        jklinger410 2y ago
        When you talk about "modern advertising" I think you are referring to the large campaigns run by huge companies. There is a lot of lower level advertising that is very straightforward and honest.
    - spencerflem 2y ago
      I've added some more in a sibling comment, but I really don't think the methods used by advertisers are much different than state progapaganda or cults.
    - thiagoharry 2y ago
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - nonameiguess 2y ago
    Affecting the thoughts of other humans is close to the purpose of all inter-human communication. Consider the following cases: - Your neighbor knows you need a new table and their brother sells tables so they tell you about it and offer you a special deal. - Your daughter is an avowed pacifist who tries very hard to convince you that you should move your family to another country and stop paying taxes to one that is currently waging a war. - Your son really hates broccoli and pleads with you to make carrots for dinner side instead. - A company that makes packaged dessert foods pays theaters to covertly insert subliminal imagery into film reels designed to make viewers crave their food. - A group takes over a rural commune and recruits people from broken homes, convincing them to become sex slaves and take part in ritual suicide pacts over the course of many years of sophisticated psychological manipulation and isolation techniques. - A charistmatic totalitarian politician spends years on the stump gradually convinging a voting majority of what used to be a liberal democracy that directing all national production toward warfare, attempting to conquer their entire continent, and exterminating an entire race of nationless people is the only way forward for human progress. Are all of these activities morally equivalent? Does it make sense to call all of them by the same term? Or does that decrease, rather than increase, the usefulness with which we can discuss these kinds of things? That said, I can't disagree that 20% of a national economy being devoted to marketing and advertising seems unlikely to be a socially optimal allocation of economic activity.
    - spencerflem 2y ago
      yeah, fair. I posted in a sibling comment two more reasons imo. advertising fits with brainwashing, namely that it: Is done scientifically and at huge scale by powerful entities & is non-consentual, almost everyone would rather not see ads or internalize their ideas. (Coors beer is cool and if you drink it women will like you more, yuck, who wants to believe that) But yeah, you're right that just influencing thoughts is not the only part of the definition. And really past a certain point anything is impossible to define, so these arguments are always a little weird. Eg. I challenge you to give an airtight definition of what is a chair. Calling advertizment brainwashing is certainly a little provocative, & in my opinion perfectly correct given the scale and goals. But I can see how it can be annoying in retrospect. Glad we agree that spending that much on it is sad
- jampekka 2y ago
  I find this dictionary definition quite fitting: "2. any method of controlled systematic indoctrination, especially one based on repetition or confusion" https://www.dictionary.com/browse/brainwashing https://www.dictionary.com/browse/brainwashing
  - card_zero 2y ago
    Then you didn't find definition 1 quite fitting.
    - jampekka 2y ago
      Not as snugly. "a method for systematically changing attitudes or altering beliefs," fits very well. "originated in totalitarian countries" not so much, and "especially through the use of torture, drugs, or psychological-stress techniques" very little, although it's an "especially", so not a required feature. The "originated in totalitarian countries" is a bit odd requirement for my taste. Of course, if one wants to use that definition, then by definition even "a method for systematically changing attitudes or altering beliefs the use of torture, drugs, or psychological-stress techniques" is not brainwashing if it doesn't originate from a country that is defined as totalitarian with some definition.
      - spencerflem 2y ago
        yeah, I think in retrospect maybe part of the confusion is that some people's definition of brainwashing is only the torture/drugs definition, while mine and yours presumably has always included propaganda and other purely psychological means. But its hard to convince someone ads are brainwashing when to their mind its just completely obviously something else. In the end its all language games anyways when we hopefully should all be able to agree that it's a problem that 20% of the GDP to be spent trying to control our thoughts
        card_zero 2y ago
        Would you be OK with 1% of GDP? But would you really be OK with some authority deciding how much gets spent on it? Or is the amount not the real issue? There's an ad in the article itself: it was offering me 25% off a subscription to MIT Technology Review during Earth Week. I didn't ask to see that information. It was trying to get me to do something I wasn't very interested in. Is that advert part of the problem, or is it one you'd arbitrarily allow?