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It doesn't help your case to be hyperbolic, you just come off as irrational and emotional. The average ACA insurance plan costs $477 per month. You can pay that

It doesn't help your case to be hyperbolic, you just come off as irrational and emotional. The average ACA insurance plan costs $477 per month. You can pay that with a job paying federal minimum wage, the lowest legal wage allowable by law anywhere in the country. That's miles away from bankruptcy.

tristor 3y ago
That average ACA insurance plan also covers almost nothing. All health insurance is not equal.
- meetingthrower 3y ago
  Totally false. I've been on ACA silver plans and all expense paid corporate plans. At the end of the day the true costs are pretty equivalent - $20K for a family of 4 per year in cash going to insurance/healthcare. With ACA, that is subsidized massively downward for lower incomes. And the employee pays some. And if you are truly poor (in most states) you get free medicaid plans.
  - nobody9999 3y ago
    >And if you are truly poor (in most states) you get free medicaid plans. The quality of care for Medicaid patients is generally crap. Go and ask your doctor if they accept Medicaid patients, or even those on ACA plans. I'd wager the answer is a big 'no'. The differences in quality of care and levels of access are stark, with most Employer subsidized insurance >> ACA plans >> Medicare >> Medicaid.
    - meetingthrower 3y ago
      Again, 100% false on ACA. (I would agree that medicaid is a PIA, but it's free!) The ACA plans are run by the same carriers as employer plans in my state. Blue Cross, Harvard Pilgrim, etc. Networks are exactly the same. Price is equivalent. If you are paying less through your employer it is because employer is paying insurance company or self insuring instead of paying you the cash. For many industries, especially blue collar, it would actually be much better for employees to do ACA plans as they would pay much less for their healthcare post subsidies. The ACA has been such a boon for small businesses and entrepreneurs - before ACA you basically couldn't get insurance. Now it is actually a non issue.
      - nobody9999 2y ago
        >Again, 100% false on ACA. (I would agree that medicaid is a PIA, but it's free!) The ACA plans are run by the same carriers as employer plans in my state. Blue Cross, Harvard Pilgrim, etc. Networks are exactly the same. Price is equivalent. If you are paying less through your employer it is because employer is paying insurance company or self insuring instead of paying you the cash. Sorry for the late reply. That may be true in your state[0], but in mine all the insurers that have employer plans (although providers made sure to ask whether your plan was ACA or not -- "we don't accept ACA plans!" before then) have left the ACA marketplace. I admit that they did try to raise premiums 20-30% a year before quitting the marketplace -- I declined to pay that much more, although premiums have risen that much and more with the insurers still on the ACA marketplace. So, while there may be places where the ACA provides decent coverage at a reasonable rate, there are other places (sadly, like where I live) that it does not. On the whole, I'm glad the ACA exists, as it provides insurance to many who could never have afforded it in the past. That said, it's far from what we really need -- a single payer system like Medicare, but for everyone. [0] I live in New York.
- nobody9999 3y ago
  >That average ACA insurance plan also covers almost nothing. All health insurance is not equal. That's absolutely the case. I have an ACA plan and in order to get decent coverage (as well as a $600 deductible and $5900 annual out-of-pocket costs) along with significant co-pays for hospitals and durable medical goods, I pay nearly $15,000/year. And premiums just keep going up and up -- something like 15-20%/year, while more and more stuff (all radiology[0], many drugs and pretty much anything other than routine care and consults) requires pre-approval from third-parties engaged by the insurance company who generally take several weeks to make determinations, which can significantly delay urgently needed care. Even worse, many providers refuse to accept plans sold on ACA marketplaces, which, in many cases, leaves the providers who are accepting Medicaid[1] and Medicare[2]. Those are generally not the top tier, despite the huge premiums (in my case, nearly USD$1100/month -- just for me) charged by the insurers. Here in the US, we need a single-payer solution in the worst way. The profit motive for healthcare distorts things in so many ways -- with patients getting poor coverage/care and providers getting squeezed by insurers to tweak their quarterly numbers. It's disgusting. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiology [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicaid https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicaid [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicare_(United_States) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicare_(United_States) (not to be confused with the AU program of the same name -- they aren't similar)
hollywood_court 3y ago
But how do they pay for rent, utilities, transportation, and groceries?
pixl97 3y ago
Have you even looked at the deductible/out of pocket on those plans? With most of them you're looking at $10k out of pocket max. My employer paid for health care has that same monthly cost for my entire family with a $1500 out of pocket max. I don't think you have the first clue how much money that $8500 difference is for the average american.
olliej 3y ago
Uh what? This isn’t _just_ bankruptcy through heart attack or whatever. Plenty of people are on treatments that absent insurance (in the US) become unaffordable the moment you don’t have actual good insurance (ACA care is basically “don’t go bankrupt through accident/emergency). Couple that with the massive cost you get when you switch to having to buy multiple plans and you get trivially screwed. You cannot easily lose employer provided insurance, and that’s part of what keeps wages low.
vel0city 3y ago
Federal minimum wage is $7.25/hr. Average full-time working hours in a month is ~168 hours. So $1,218. Minus FICA (7.65%), $1,124.83. That healthcare plan, before copays or whatever other costs, is already 42% of your income. You've got $647 to budget with for the rest of the month. That said, if you're on minimum wage, you're getting other subsidies for the plan and might qualify for Medicaid anyways, so honestly looking at this average cost and comparing incomes is already a pretty useless comparison anyways. You'd have to know what all you qualify for which will vary from state to state. So nobody getting paid minimum wage is spending $477/mo for health insurance.

tristor 3y ago

That average ACA insurance plan also covers almost nothing. All health insurance is not equal.

meetingthrower 3y ago
Totally false. I've been on ACA silver plans and all expense paid corporate plans. At the end of the day the true costs are pretty equivalent - $20K for a family of 4 per year in cash going to insurance/healthcare. With ACA, that is subsidized massively downward for lower incomes. And the employee pays some. And if you are truly poor (in most states) you get free medicaid plans.
- nobody9999 3y ago
  >And if you are truly poor (in most states) you get free medicaid plans. The quality of care for Medicaid patients is generally crap. Go and ask your doctor if they accept Medicaid patients, or even those on ACA plans. I'd wager the answer is a big 'no'. The differences in quality of care and levels of access are stark, with most Employer subsidized insurance >> ACA plans >> Medicare >> Medicaid.
  - meetingthrower 3y ago
    Again, 100% false on ACA. (I would agree that medicaid is a PIA, but it's free!) The ACA plans are run by the same carriers as employer plans in my state. Blue Cross, Harvard Pilgrim, etc. Networks are exactly the same. Price is equivalent. If you are paying less through your employer it is because employer is paying insurance company or self insuring instead of paying you the cash. For many industries, especially blue collar, it would actually be much better for employees to do ACA plans as they would pay much less for their healthcare post subsidies. The ACA has been such a boon for small businesses and entrepreneurs - before ACA you basically couldn't get insurance. Now it is actually a non issue.
    - nobody9999 2y ago
      >Again, 100% false on ACA. (I would agree that medicaid is a PIA, but it's free!) The ACA plans are run by the same carriers as employer plans in my state. Blue Cross, Harvard Pilgrim, etc. Networks are exactly the same. Price is equivalent. If you are paying less through your employer it is because employer is paying insurance company or self insuring instead of paying you the cash. Sorry for the late reply. That may be true in your state[0], but in mine all the insurers that have employer plans (although providers made sure to ask whether your plan was ACA or not -- "we don't accept ACA plans!" before then) have left the ACA marketplace. I admit that they did try to raise premiums 20-30% a year before quitting the marketplace -- I declined to pay that much more, although premiums have risen that much and more with the insurers still on the ACA marketplace. So, while there may be places where the ACA provides decent coverage at a reasonable rate, there are other places (sadly, like where I live) that it does not. On the whole, I'm glad the ACA exists, as it provides insurance to many who could never have afforded it in the past. That said, it's far from what we really need -- a single payer system like Medicare, but for everyone. [0] I live in New York.
nobody9999 3y ago
>That average ACA insurance plan also covers almost nothing. All health insurance is not equal. That's absolutely the case. I have an ACA plan and in order to get decent coverage (as well as a $600 deductible and $5900 annual out-of-pocket costs) along with significant co-pays for hospitals and durable medical goods, I pay nearly $15,000/year. And premiums just keep going up and up -- something like 15-20%/year, while more and more stuff (all radiology[0], many drugs and pretty much anything other than routine care and consults) requires pre-approval from third-parties engaged by the insurance company who generally take several weeks to make determinations, which can significantly delay urgently needed care. Even worse, many providers refuse to accept plans sold on ACA marketplaces, which, in many cases, leaves the providers who are accepting Medicaid[1] and Medicare[2]. Those are generally not the top tier, despite the huge premiums (in my case, nearly USD$1100/month -- just for me) charged by the insurers. Here in the US, we need a single-payer solution in the worst way. The profit motive for healthcare distorts things in so many ways -- with patients getting poor coverage/care and providers getting squeezed by insurers to tweak their quarterly numbers. It's disgusting. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiology [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicaid https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicaid [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicare_(United_States) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicare_(United_States) (not to be confused with the AU program of the same name -- they aren't similar)

hollywood_court 3y ago

But how do they pay for rent, utilities, transportation, and groceries?

pixl97 3y ago

Have you even looked at the deductible/out of pocket on those plans? With most of them you're looking at $10k out of pocket max. My employer paid for health care has that same monthly cost for my entire family with a $1500 out of pocket max. I don't think you have the first clue how much money that $8500 difference is for the average american.

olliej 3y ago

Uh what? This isn’t _just_ bankruptcy through heart attack or whatever. Plenty of people are on treatments that absent insurance (in the US) become unaffordable the moment you don’t have actual good insurance (ACA care is basically “don’t go bankrupt through accident/emergency). Couple that with the massive cost you get when you switch to having to buy multiple plans and you get trivially screwed. You cannot easily lose employer provided insurance, and that’s part of what keeps wages low.

vel0city 3y ago

Federal minimum wage is $7.25/hr. Average full-time working hours in a month is ~168 hours. So $1,218. Minus FICA (7.65%), $1,124.83. That healthcare plan, before copays or whatever other costs, is already 42% of your income. You've got $647 to budget with for the rest of the month. That said, if you're on minimum wage, you're getting other subsidies for the plan and might qualify for Medicaid anyways, so honestly looking at this average cost and comparing incomes is already a pretty useless comparison anyways. You'd have to know what all you qualify for which will vary from state to state. So nobody getting paid minimum wage is spending $477/mo for health insurance.