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http://help.github.com/win-set-up-git/ http://help.github.com/win-set-up-git/ Please, bring me someone who actually had trouble with those instructions, and no

by nknight 14y ago

http://help.github.com/win-set-up-git/ http://help.github.com/win-set-up-git/ Please, bring me someone who actually had trouble with those instructions, and not because they freaked out at the first sign of a command line. They must have actually read them, including the expandable bits, made a serious effort to follow them, and failed.

talmand 14y ago
In most cases you are probably correct, I'm not really commenting on those particular instructions. I'm just making an observation about the responses based on comments people give about problems they are having. I've read through the instructions and they do seem straight-forward enough. In fact, they are actually quite nice. But that still does not mean that some people will not have problems along the way. Not that I have any evidence to back this up but I can think of a few possibilities of why people may have problems: 1: The installer keeps failing for some unexplainable reason. Maybe they don't have the user rights, maybe the IT department is blocking it, whatever other possible install problems. You can't assume that everyone will understand why the installer is having issues on their particular computer as compared to another. We're already seeing reports like this for the new installer just released, I guess those people can't follow the simplest instructions of double-clicking an exe installer correctly. Right? 2: When they get to the line ending conversions part; what if they don't understand the options and abandon the process? Remember, some of these people are new to Git and without some hand-holding they may feel lost. In the screenshot I see there's no recommended option. So it's up to the user to pick the one they need without knowing what they need. Unless there's someone to point it out. And considering some people's attitudes about noobs doing the "wrong" thing then options like that are rather important to consider properly. Do you want to bet whether someone has complained about someone else picking the Windows-style checkout? 3: Even though the instructions are nicely laid out, not everyone is accustomed to the command line. I bet there's a huge number of Windows users who have never used the command line. Even with simple instructions there's the possibility for mistakes. There's even an extra section just for SSH that clearly shows that some people have issues with that part, even Github is trying to address it right there. But they can't possibly cover every conceivable issue. Notice that most of my examples have nothing to do with the instructions themselves, but unforeseen problems that we have to deal with simply because so many people have different computers with different configurations with different networks with different IT departments with their different mandates. The attitude that it's simple for me therefore it must be simple for you is a bad one. The new installer worked for me on the first try, I don't dismiss the ones that did have a problem for some reason. But to further prove my point about my two responses from before, Github decided to go with response A. How do we know? The release of the even simpler all-in-one application that started this whole conversation. Even with the "simple" instructions that have been pointed out, Github decided to listen about problems with the process and have responded with an even easier method to accomplish the same task. Even go above and beyond. That is the mark of a good software developer/company/project. These are people trying to be inclusive, not exclusive. Sadly, too many people in this thread decided to go with response B. Thankfully, Github disagrees with that attitude.
- nknight 14y ago
  > The installer keeps failing for some unexplainable reason. Not a problem following the instructions -- such a failure is clearly outside their scope. You also conveniently ignore the reality that if they don't have permissions to install it... They're not supposed to be installing it in the first place. Report them to their corporate IT department, you'll be doing everyone a favor. > When they get to the line ending conversions part; what if they don't understand the options and abandon the process? Purely hypothetical. But if they give up that easily, yes, I consider it PEBKAC. People must take responsibility for their own ignorance and laziness. > Even though the instructions are nicely laid out, not everyone is accustomed to the command line. It. Is. Text. Read it. We read every day, we type every day. This is not difficult. Fear of the command line is irrational, which is exactly why I excluded it.
  - talmand 14y ago
    Oh I agree, I'm just providing examples. As I stated, the instructions are quite nice and easy to follow. I'm just pointing out possible problems people may have during the install process when so many people seem to be saying surely no problems exist because it is so simple. I tried to make it quite clear that it was all hypothetical and outside the scope of the instructions, maybe I failed. But they are indeed possible problems that people can have during the install process. Whether the people are correctly identifying their problems is a different discussion. You are making my point for me, it is simple for you therefore it should be simple for everyone else. I'm just saying that it is quite possibly not so simple for other people, for various reasons. Nothing more.
CJefferson 14y ago
I had a couple of breakages, because step 2 tells you to remove SSH keys if they are already present (without saying "Wait! Why do you have SSH keys? Maybe you should ask why they are there"), which broke various tools that expected the old keys to be there. So in all the rules, the one place that isn't just "press OK, press OK, press OK", tells you to do something probably dangerous, depending on your setup.
- nknight 14y ago
  It tells you to back them up, that makes it an inconvenience in the worst case, not dangerous. More fundamentally, you had SSH keys and no understanding of what they were for? Sorry, but this is exactly what I'm talking about. You are choosing to use systems you have no understanding of, and taking no time at all to learn about them. You are dangerous.
  - CJefferson 14y ago
    First of all, I should have clarifed that "I had a couple of issues" means I had to fix some broken computers where that had happened. Secondly, you just said you wanted "A single person actually who had trouble with these rules". I presented you with such a person (indirectly). While it isn't dangerous, it was annoying, because it took some time to figure out why various tools where no longer working correctly. To be honest, you seem to be getting surprisingly angry that there at people who might want to use this shiny thing called github, on which many projects they use might reside, without fulling understanding every detail of git, ssh, etc. I know some mathematicans who can write amazing algorithms, who I would want involved in projects I work on. However, they use windows and don't really care about the finer workings of unix. Personally, I think it's good if such people has the easiest access possible to making a quick push request, on their own machine in their comfort zone.
    - nknight 14y ago
      I'm angry at willful ignorance and attempts to justify it. I truly, TRULY have no problem with making key generation push-button. I really don't. I have a very BIG problem with people who don't understand it pushing that button. But you're right, I give up. All I can do is ensure that these people who demand of themselves nothing but the most disgusting of human characteristics -- willful ignorance -- do not come anywhere near my systems or projects.

by nknight 14y ago

talmand 14y ago

In most cases you are probably correct, I'm not really commenting on those particular instructions. I'm just making an observation about the responses based on comments people give about problems they are having. I've read through the instructions and they do seem straight-forward enough. In fact, they are actually quite nice. But that still does not mean that some people will not have problems along the way. Not that I have any evidence to back this up but I can think of a few possibilities of why people may have problems: 1: The installer keeps failing for some unexplainable reason. Maybe they don't have the user rights, maybe the IT department is blocking it, whatever other possible install problems. You can't assume that everyone will understand why the installer is having issues on their particular computer as compared to another. We're already seeing reports like this for the new installer just released, I guess those people can't follow the simplest instructions of double-clicking an exe installer correctly. Right? 2: When they get to the line ending conversions part; what if they don't understand the options and abandon the process? Remember, some of these people are new to Git and without some hand-holding they may feel lost. In the screenshot I see there's no recommended option. So it's up to the user to pick the one they need without knowing what they need. Unless there's someone to point it out. And considering some people's attitudes about noobs doing the "wrong" thing then options like that are rather important to consider properly. Do you want to bet whether someone has complained about someone else picking the Windows-style checkout? 3: Even though the instructions are nicely laid out, not everyone is accustomed to the command line. I bet there's a huge number of Windows users who have never used the command line. Even with simple instructions there's the possibility for mistakes. There's even an extra section just for SSH that clearly shows that some people have issues with that part, even Github is trying to address it right there. But they can't possibly cover every conceivable issue. Notice that most of my examples have nothing to do with the instructions themselves, but unforeseen problems that we have to deal with simply because so many people have different computers with different configurations with different networks with different IT departments with their different mandates. The attitude that it's simple for me therefore it must be simple for you is a bad one. The new installer worked for me on the first try, I don't dismiss the ones that did have a problem for some reason. But to further prove my point about my two responses from before, Github decided to go with response A. How do we know? The release of the even simpler all-in-one application that started this whole conversation. Even with the "simple" instructions that have been pointed out, Github decided to listen about problems with the process and have responded with an even easier method to accomplish the same task. Even go above and beyond. That is the mark of a good software developer/company/project. These are people trying to be inclusive, not exclusive. Sadly, too many people in this thread decided to go with response B. Thankfully, Github disagrees with that attitude.

nknight 14y ago
> The installer keeps failing for some unexplainable reason. Not a problem following the instructions -- such a failure is clearly outside their scope. You also conveniently ignore the reality that if they don't have permissions to install it... They're not supposed to be installing it in the first place. Report them to their corporate IT department, you'll be doing everyone a favor. > When they get to the line ending conversions part; what if they don't understand the options and abandon the process? Purely hypothetical. But if they give up that easily, yes, I consider it PEBKAC. People must take responsibility for their own ignorance and laziness. > Even though the instructions are nicely laid out, not everyone is accustomed to the command line. It. Is. Text. Read it. We read every day, we type every day. This is not difficult. Fear of the command line is irrational, which is exactly why I excluded it.
- talmand 14y ago
  Oh I agree, I'm just providing examples. As I stated, the instructions are quite nice and easy to follow. I'm just pointing out possible problems people may have during the install process when so many people seem to be saying surely no problems exist because it is so simple. I tried to make it quite clear that it was all hypothetical and outside the scope of the instructions, maybe I failed. But they are indeed possible problems that people can have during the install process. Whether the people are correctly identifying their problems is a different discussion. You are making my point for me, it is simple for you therefore it should be simple for everyone else. I'm just saying that it is quite possibly not so simple for other people, for various reasons. Nothing more.

CJefferson 14y ago

I had a couple of breakages, because step 2 tells you to remove SSH keys if they are already present (without saying "Wait! Why do you have SSH keys? Maybe you should ask why they are there"), which broke various tools that expected the old keys to be there. So in all the rules, the one place that isn't just "press OK, press OK, press OK", tells you to do something probably dangerous, depending on your setup.

nknight 14y ago
It tells you to back them up, that makes it an inconvenience in the worst case, not dangerous. More fundamentally, you had SSH keys and no understanding of what they were for? Sorry, but this is exactly what I'm talking about. You are choosing to use systems you have no understanding of, and taking no time at all to learn about them. You are dangerous.
- CJefferson 14y ago
  First of all, I should have clarifed that "I had a couple of issues" means I had to fix some broken computers where that had happened. Secondly, you just said you wanted "A single person actually who had trouble with these rules". I presented you with such a person (indirectly). While it isn't dangerous, it was annoying, because it took some time to figure out why various tools where no longer working correctly. To be honest, you seem to be getting surprisingly angry that there at people who might want to use this shiny thing called github, on which many projects they use might reside, without fulling understanding every detail of git, ssh, etc. I know some mathematicans who can write amazing algorithms, who I would want involved in projects I work on. However, they use windows and don't really care about the finer workings of unix. Personally, I think it's good if such people has the easiest access possible to making a quick push request, on their own machine in their comfort zone.
  - nknight 14y ago
    I'm angry at willful ignorance and attempts to justify it. I truly, TRULY have no problem with making key generation push-button. I really don't. I have a very BIG problem with people who don't understand it pushing that button. But you're right, I give up. All I can do is ensure that these people who demand of themselves nothing but the most disgusting of human characteristics -- willful ignorance -- do not come anywhere near my systems or projects.