10 ms·

Why would anyone use spaces?

XorNot 2y ago
Because spaces are guaranteed to layout the text to a predictable format, whereas tabs are not since the size can be adjusted and tab-stops don't necessarily line up with obvious word boundaries on the lines above.
- Dibby053 2y ago
  The correct way to use tabs is to indent with tabs and align with spaces, that way everyone can adjust the tab size to their liking without breaking alignment.
  - MrJohz 2y ago
    Then you've got mixed tabs and spaces, which seems like it's going to inevitably lead to confusion when someone who isn't aware of the convention starts to make changes. Two different invisible characters in a single file is a recipe for madness.
    - yencabulator 2y ago
      By your definition, all Go code in the world is madness? Newbies editing code is a problem best solved with automatic formatting.
  - smallstepforman 2y ago
    “correct way”? This is just your opinion. Everyone has one. Want to read mine? “A text editor should never replace what I type”. Want another opinion? “An editor should always distinctively display white-space characters”.
  - okanat 2y ago
    That doesn't work when alignment depends on the tab size like aligning an indented line below an unindented line like long assignments Type myvar = something_very_long + that_needs_alignment; The only way to guarantee such complex alignment is using spaces. It renders everywhere exactly the same. So reviewing stuff on web-based environments gets easier.
    - outop 2y ago
      You can do it: by putting tabs on the second line to the start of the first line, then using spaces to match "Type myvar = ". It's just that sooner or later someone will get it wrong.
  - autumn-antlers 2y ago
    This was once my understanding, and the accessibility argument still speaks to me, but I wish Elastic Tab-stops saw more discussion and support. https://nick-gravgaard.com/elastic-tabstops/ https://nick-gravgaard.com/elastic-tabstops/ I'll try to do my part. I've been writing (and reading) a lot of Lisp lately, and have seen some projects adopt indentation idioms which offset blocks from the regular tab-stop intervals. A standard tab-stop might be +4, but then arguments might be lined up with each-other at +6 (+1.5 stops): (list 'a 'b 'c) Any of those arguments could be forms, which might return to the standard tap-stop of +4 but off by 2 (let's call that `+4(+2)`): (list 'a (with-foo quz (bar quz)) 'c) Lists written with the `quote` syntax might do the same thing, but produce an offset of only 1: '(a (b (c))) The end result is that changing a code's indentation level (like when raising an anonymous function into a top-level definition) means adjusting the spaces (which were supposed to only be for alignment) if any preceding forms had introduced an offset. The alignment doesn't change, but it's relation to regular tab-stops does. Sometimes, this is an adjustment of zero, but you still need to think about it. In an all-spaces environment you could use vim's visual mode to select the block as a rectangle and paste it into the top level, but with "indent/align" semantics this same situation regularly requires maintenance (by inserting or removing spaces, in addition to manipulating indentation via tabs) to preserve both proper alignment and the integrity of the semantic distinction[1]. I think that elastic tab-stops fix this by correctly modeling indentation is it should be conceptualized, platonically divorced from the characters encoding it. I think that spaces are better than tabs when white-space isn't significant (and personal style might disregard tab-stops), but recognize that tabs are more accessible and worth using when tab-stops are enforced as a byproduct of significant white-space. I repeat that elastic tab-stops are awesome. 1: Someone correct me if vim can actually just do that with tabs just fine, i dont really know, it late~
- 01HNNWZ0MV43FF 2y ago
  Simply don't adjust the size. Tabs are 4 spaces wide, I have just declared it. This is no worse than using 4 spaces to indent. Using 2 or 8 or 3 spaces for a tab is a skill issue.
  - AlotOfReading 2y ago
    Ironically enough, the kernel style guide declares tabs to be 8 spaces and anything else as heretical.
- s1gsegv 2y ago
  If someone finds it more readable to have their tabs smaller to fit on a small screen, or larger to fit on a large screen, why deprive them of that? It’s perfectly fine to still have a canonical width if you want to use it for other reasons, like Linux with their “tab is 8 spaces when deciding whether a line is too long” thing.
- gsich 2y ago
  This is a non-issue. Or better: not the issue of the person who writes the code.
- Intralexical 2y ago
  May as well mandate a specific font and color scheme if the goal is to control how other people view code. Tabs are self-consistent, which is usually all that matters. If for some reason you need greater control (E.G. ASCII-art spanning multiple indentation levels), then that should be documented instead.
wodenokoto 2y ago
You just used 4 of them …
thayne 2y ago
Because the prevailing convention in many languages is to use spaces. In a vacuum, I slightly prefer tabs to spaces for indentation. But I think being consistent with most other code in a language or project is more important than my personal preference.
Terr_ 2y ago
Indent with spaces: When the ASCII art needs to line up. Indent with tabs: To save time time adding/deleting characters or squinting at exact boundaries. Better than both: Files are saved with spaces, but the code-editor is smart-enough to act as if the multiple spaces are a tab during editing or when setting a custom tab-width.
- s1gsegv 2y ago
  I have yet to see an editor that will truly work with spaces that way. Sure, the tab key will insert spaces, and the backspace will remove multiple spaces if you’re at a whitespace boundary, but I still have a much smaller click target when selecting the beginning of code (i.e. 1/4 the amount of space to click to get the cursor directly before the first non whitespace character, or when dragging to select the code on a line). I always find that I’m clicking a bit too early in the “tab,” not selecting where I want, and then backspace is treating it like normal spaces again so things aren’t aligned. I’d also love if it could render “tabs” of spaces at different widths, so that if one person wants to look at 2-space code, and another finds it more readable as 8-space, they have that option. And anyway, all of this is only to help when a codebase is spaces when you want tabs, because I don’t see much benefit to saving out spaces if you’re going to go to all of this effort to emulate tab behavior.
  - pkulak 2y ago
    Stop clicking, mate.
    - akira2501 2y ago
      Why do I use Emacs for almost everything? I broke my shoulder that supports my dominant hand. Seriously. Thank God I did not break my pinky.
      - erik_seaberg 2y ago
        I knew another student who worked the university computer lab help desk. His comment about a ski injury was "at least it wasn't my space bar thumb."
Biganon 2y ago
Honestly, my reason for liking spaces is "I know what every invisible character in my code is". Since I obviously cannot stop using spaces altogether, I use them everywhere. Also at work we all use 4 spaces for indentation. Nobody wants a smaller number. We have huge screens, we're not in the 80s anymore
- imiric 2y ago
  > We have huge screens, we're not in the 80s anymore I would like to fit more text on my modern screens, and 4-space indentation and 120+ char lines limit how many files I can view side-by-side while maintaining legibility. I still try to keep my lines around 80 chars long in 2024 for this reason.
  - anthk 2y ago
    100x32 it's a sane size, but I always set 72/80 chars as a limit on messages such as Usenet/email because not everyone uses my setup.
- pyrale 2y ago
  > We have huge screens, we're not in the 80s anymore Unless you have huge peripheral vision too, your screen is likely not the issue.
  - guenthert 2y ago
    Ha, ha. When I first sat on a (then new) 24" wide screen (I remember when 19" CRTs where huge), I actually experienced something alike vertigo. Happened never again, but I haven't tried one of those concavely curved monitors yet ...
    - inhumantsar 2y ago
      this thing in portrait mode might do the trick: https://youtu.be/CsoKWsZ-Tyw?si=LkUHiqIF429v8h6Y https://youtu.be/CsoKWsZ-Tyw?si=LkUHiqIF429v8h6Y
- 2y ago
sedatk 2y ago
Zero chance of a problem like in the post happening in the first place.
Intralexical 2y ago
Same reason I multiply all my integers by 4 in the setter and divide by 4 in the getter.

Because spaces are guaranteed to layout the text to a predictable format, whereas tabs are not since the size can be adjusted and tab-stops don't necessarily line up with obvious word boundaries on the lines above.

Dibby053 2y ago
The correct way to use tabs is to indent with tabs and align with spaces, that way everyone can adjust the tab size to their liking without breaking alignment.
- MrJohz 2y ago
  Then you've got mixed tabs and spaces, which seems like it's going to inevitably lead to confusion when someone who isn't aware of the convention starts to make changes. Two different invisible characters in a single file is a recipe for madness.
  - yencabulator 2y ago
    By your definition, all Go code in the world is madness? Newbies editing code is a problem best solved with automatic formatting.
- smallstepforman 2y ago
  “correct way”? This is just your opinion. Everyone has one. Want to read mine? “A text editor should never replace what I type”. Want another opinion? “An editor should always distinctively display white-space characters”.
- okanat 2y ago
  That doesn't work when alignment depends on the tab size like aligning an indented line below an unindented line like long assignments Type myvar = something_very_long + that_needs_alignment; The only way to guarantee such complex alignment is using spaces. It renders everywhere exactly the same. So reviewing stuff on web-based environments gets easier.
  - outop 2y ago
    You can do it: by putting tabs on the second line to the start of the first line, then using spaces to match "Type myvar = ". It's just that sooner or later someone will get it wrong.
- autumn-antlers 2y ago
  This was once my understanding, and the accessibility argument still speaks to me, but I wish Elastic Tab-stops saw more discussion and support. https://nick-gravgaard.com/elastic-tabstops/ https://nick-gravgaard.com/elastic-tabstops/ I'll try to do my part. I've been writing (and reading) a lot of Lisp lately, and have seen some projects adopt indentation idioms which offset blocks from the regular tab-stop intervals. A standard tab-stop might be +4, but then arguments might be lined up with each-other at +6 (+1.5 stops): (list 'a 'b 'c) Any of those arguments could be forms, which might return to the standard tap-stop of +4 but off by 2 (let's call that `+4(+2)`): (list 'a (with-foo quz (bar quz)) 'c) Lists written with the `quote` syntax might do the same thing, but produce an offset of only 1: '(a (b (c))) The end result is that changing a code's indentation level (like when raising an anonymous function into a top-level definition) means adjusting the spaces (which were supposed to only be for alignment) if any preceding forms had introduced an offset. The alignment doesn't change, but it's relation to regular tab-stops does. Sometimes, this is an adjustment of zero, but you still need to think about it. In an all-spaces environment you could use vim's visual mode to select the block as a rectangle and paste it into the top level, but with "indent/align" semantics this same situation regularly requires maintenance (by inserting or removing spaces, in addition to manipulating indentation via tabs) to preserve both proper alignment and the integrity of the semantic distinction[1]. I think that elastic tab-stops fix this by correctly modeling indentation is it should be conceptualized, platonically divorced from the characters encoding it. I think that spaces are better than tabs when white-space isn't significant (and personal style might disregard tab-stops), but recognize that tabs are more accessible and worth using when tab-stops are enforced as a byproduct of significant white-space. I repeat that elastic tab-stops are awesome. 1: Someone correct me if vim can actually just do that with tabs just fine, i dont really know, it late~
01HNNWZ0MV43FF 2y ago
Simply don't adjust the size. Tabs are 4 spaces wide, I have just declared it. This is no worse than using 4 spaces to indent. Using 2 or 8 or 3 spaces for a tab is a skill issue.
- AlotOfReading 2y ago
  Ironically enough, the kernel style guide declares tabs to be 8 spaces and anything else as heretical.
s1gsegv 2y ago
If someone finds it more readable to have their tabs smaller to fit on a small screen, or larger to fit on a large screen, why deprive them of that? It’s perfectly fine to still have a canonical width if you want to use it for other reasons, like Linux with their “tab is 8 spaces when deciding whether a line is too long” thing.
gsich 2y ago
This is a non-issue. Or better: not the issue of the person who writes the code.
Intralexical 2y ago
May as well mandate a specific font and color scheme if the goal is to control how other people view code. Tabs are self-consistent, which is usually all that matters. If for some reason you need greater control (E.G. ASCII-art spanning multiple indentation levels), then that should be documented instead.

wodenokoto 2y ago

You just used 4 of them …

thayne 2y ago

Because the prevailing convention in many languages is to use spaces. In a vacuum, I slightly prefer tabs to spaces for indentation. But I think being consistent with most other code in a language or project is more important than my personal preference.

Terr_ 2y ago

Indent with spaces: When the ASCII art needs to line up. Indent with tabs: To save time time adding/deleting characters or squinting at exact boundaries. Better than both: Files are saved with spaces, but the code-editor is smart-enough to act as if the multiple spaces are a tab during editing or when setting a custom tab-width.

s1gsegv 2y ago
I have yet to see an editor that will truly work with spaces that way. Sure, the tab key will insert spaces, and the backspace will remove multiple spaces if you’re at a whitespace boundary, but I still have a much smaller click target when selecting the beginning of code (i.e. 1/4 the amount of space to click to get the cursor directly before the first non whitespace character, or when dragging to select the code on a line). I always find that I’m clicking a bit too early in the “tab,” not selecting where I want, and then backspace is treating it like normal spaces again so things aren’t aligned. I’d also love if it could render “tabs” of spaces at different widths, so that if one person wants to look at 2-space code, and another finds it more readable as 8-space, they have that option. And anyway, all of this is only to help when a codebase is spaces when you want tabs, because I don’t see much benefit to saving out spaces if you’re going to go to all of this effort to emulate tab behavior.
- pkulak 2y ago
  Stop clicking, mate.
  - akira2501 2y ago
    Why do I use Emacs for almost everything? I broke my shoulder that supports my dominant hand. Seriously. Thank God I did not break my pinky.
    - erik_seaberg 2y ago
      I knew another student who worked the university computer lab help desk. His comment about a ski injury was "at least it wasn't my space bar thumb."

Biganon 2y ago

Honestly, my reason for liking spaces is "I know what every invisible character in my code is". Since I obviously cannot stop using spaces altogether, I use them everywhere. Also at work we all use 4 spaces for indentation. Nobody wants a smaller number. We have huge screens, we're not in the 80s anymore

imiric 2y ago
> We have huge screens, we're not in the 80s anymore I would like to fit more text on my modern screens, and 4-space indentation and 120+ char lines limit how many files I can view side-by-side while maintaining legibility. I still try to keep my lines around 80 chars long in 2024 for this reason.
- anthk 2y ago
  100x32 it's a sane size, but I always set 72/80 chars as a limit on messages such as Usenet/email because not everyone uses my setup.
pyrale 2y ago
> We have huge screens, we're not in the 80s anymore Unless you have huge peripheral vision too, your screen is likely not the issue.
- guenthert 2y ago
  Ha, ha. When I first sat on a (then new) 24" wide screen (I remember when 19" CRTs where huge), I actually experienced something alike vertigo. Happened never again, but I haven't tried one of those concavely curved monitors yet ...
  - inhumantsar 2y ago
    this thing in portrait mode might do the trick: https://youtu.be/CsoKWsZ-Tyw?si=LkUHiqIF429v8h6Y https://youtu.be/CsoKWsZ-Tyw?si=LkUHiqIF429v8h6Y
2y ago

sedatk 2y ago

Zero chance of a problem like in the post happening in the first place.

Intralexical 2y ago

Same reason I multiply all my integers by 4 in the setter and divide by 4 in the getter.