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The math ends up wildly unfavorable unless you are EXTREMELY confident in your teaching/transformation abilities. If you look good on paper before the school t

The math ends up wildly unfavorable unless you are EXTREMELY confident in your teaching/transformation abilities. If you look good on paper before the school then you don't need it and won't be motivated to share your income. So the applicant pool reduces itself to those who on-paper don't have great chances. So you need to cause a really big delta in the ability of those people to make good money in the industry for you to be able to get your cut. And you're gonna pull that off in 6 to 9 months? I'm a big believer in a lot more people having potential to learn than currently have easy opportunities, but that's a hell of a timeline.

solardev 3y ago
Well, presumably there's some people who wouldn't be able to afford the upfront tuition? But you're right, $30k (in the worst case) is a lot of money to pay for less than a year of bootcamp.
- mrguyorama 3y ago
  $30k is also enough to pay for a shitload of American state schools BS in Computer Science program. WTF That's about what I and my friends paid! That includes room and board in an expensive dorm (it was part of the honors program I was in) and a meal plan with the school.
  - downrightmike 3y ago
    Or a masters in CS 1 year program from the Arizona State
jimberlage 3y ago
I remember the marketing for App Academy was that we all would be self-taught, but then the actual makeup of the cohort were people who had prior programming experience (CS all through high school and as a hobby, but studied linguistics in college and regretted it; a designer who had done some JS and couldn’t pass leetcode interviews despite having current frontend skills, etc.) I think the problem they’ve run into is that there are only so many of those types to go around, and you have to stay small or really tackle the problem of transforming someone in 12 weeks eventually. That’s a different and much harder ask.
- busterarm 3y ago
  Early a/A cohort attendee here. They literally ensured their success by filtering for people who would already succeed no matter what. I don't have any misgivings about it because the curriculum did help me focus on some gaps in my understanding and build up a profile/portfolio that could land jobs. It's still expensive and had that curriculum been open at the time I could have done the whole thing on my own and saved some money. The social aspects of the program didn't end up really benefiting my career at all. The vast majority of my cohort had STEM degrees from prestigious places or were people who were programming since an early age like me. I had already had a long career in IT before I attended. 100% did get jobs, but 2 of the guys in our cohort struggled for a while -- though I think that was to get out of paying the ISA.
- AlwaysRock 3y ago
  Yup. When the Bootcamp market flourished (early/mid devBootcamp days) and incredible results seemed common it was exactly for the reasons you mentioned. Many early attendees were folks who either had some previous technical experience or were very smart and proved in some other field but wanted to move into dev work. Eventually the majority of those folks who were going to make the switch... Did. Then the average bootcamp graduate became someone who bought into the hype that anyone could learn to code. A lot of truck drivers, CS reps, and teachers applied. There nothing stopping those people from becoming great engineers. But they are going to have a more difficult time on average than the person who dabbled in coding for ten years while working as an engineer in another field and just needs a crash course to be proficient in web development. Placement rates dropped significantly around that time.
londons_explore 3y ago
There was a time about 5 years ago where tech companies were desperate to fill various minority quotas. The idea was those people were very valuable, there were very few applicants who were hotly contested by other tech companies, and lack of skills wouldn't matter - they'd learn on the job. In that world, the school only has to get the students to do a "hello world" in python and apply for the right jobs. Such a school is very cheap to run, and very lucrative as long as a decent proportion of students fit into the desirable categories. The students themselves usually aren't aware how desirable their application is - and therefore believe the school is their route in rather than a few youtube tutorials and a direct application.
- cool_dude85 3y ago
  What tech companies do you allege have/had "minority" quotas to fill?
  - ec109685 3y ago
    Google goes to great lengths to increase diversity: https://about.google/belonging/diversity-annual-report/2021/hiring/ https://about.google/belonging/diversity-annual-report/2021/...
    - davely 3y ago
      Not that you’re arguing for or against, but I thought I’d drop an interesting link to a 2020 McKinsey and Co study that shows more diverse companies generally outperform their peers. [1] Is there any wonder that Google and other (not exclusive to tech) companies desire this? [1] https://www.mckinsey.com/featured-insights/diversity-and-inclusion/diversity-wins-how-inclusion-matters https://www.mckinsey.com/featured-insights/diversity-and-inc...
      - LunaSea 3y ago
        Is that the same McKinsey that helped start opioid epidemic?
manquer 3y ago
Not necessarily, fresher or graduate trainee programs are this effectively. Large companies especially conglomerates do this by hiring freshers and investing in their learning and benefit by paying a bit lesser than the market over the years . Apprenticeship has also been successful economically at even a scale of one master/sole proprietor for centuries. The key is to derive value while they learn, not split the learning and earning parts completely
- sarchertech 3y ago
  Apprenticeships also take 3-4 years on average.

solardev 3y ago

Well, presumably there's some people who wouldn't be able to afford the upfront tuition? But you're right, $30k (in the worst case) is a lot of money to pay for less than a year of bootcamp.

mrguyorama 3y ago
$30k is also enough to pay for a shitload of American state schools BS in Computer Science program. WTF That's about what I and my friends paid! That includes room and board in an expensive dorm (it was part of the honors program I was in) and a meal plan with the school.
- downrightmike 3y ago
  Or a masters in CS 1 year program from the Arizona State

jimberlage 3y ago

I remember the marketing for App Academy was that we all would be self-taught, but then the actual makeup of the cohort were people who had prior programming experience (CS all through high school and as a hobby, but studied linguistics in college and regretted it; a designer who had done some JS and couldn’t pass leetcode interviews despite having current frontend skills, etc.) I think the problem they’ve run into is that there are only so many of those types to go around, and you have to stay small or really tackle the problem of transforming someone in 12 weeks eventually. That’s a different and much harder ask.

busterarm 3y ago
Early a/A cohort attendee here. They literally ensured their success by filtering for people who would already succeed no matter what. I don't have any misgivings about it because the curriculum did help me focus on some gaps in my understanding and build up a profile/portfolio that could land jobs. It's still expensive and had that curriculum been open at the time I could have done the whole thing on my own and saved some money. The social aspects of the program didn't end up really benefiting my career at all. The vast majority of my cohort had STEM degrees from prestigious places or were people who were programming since an early age like me. I had already had a long career in IT before I attended. 100% did get jobs, but 2 of the guys in our cohort struggled for a while -- though I think that was to get out of paying the ISA.
AlwaysRock 3y ago
Yup. When the Bootcamp market flourished (early/mid devBootcamp days) and incredible results seemed common it was exactly for the reasons you mentioned. Many early attendees were folks who either had some previous technical experience or were very smart and proved in some other field but wanted to move into dev work. Eventually the majority of those folks who were going to make the switch... Did. Then the average bootcamp graduate became someone who bought into the hype that anyone could learn to code. A lot of truck drivers, CS reps, and teachers applied. There nothing stopping those people from becoming great engineers. But they are going to have a more difficult time on average than the person who dabbled in coding for ten years while working as an engineer in another field and just needs a crash course to be proficient in web development. Placement rates dropped significantly around that time.

londons_explore 3y ago

There was a time about 5 years ago where tech companies were desperate to fill various minority quotas. The idea was those people were very valuable, there were very few applicants who were hotly contested by other tech companies, and lack of skills wouldn't matter - they'd learn on the job. In that world, the school only has to get the students to do a "hello world" in python and apply for the right jobs. Such a school is very cheap to run, and very lucrative as long as a decent proportion of students fit into the desirable categories. The students themselves usually aren't aware how desirable their application is - and therefore believe the school is their route in rather than a few youtube tutorials and a direct application.

cool_dude85 3y ago
What tech companies do you allege have/had "minority" quotas to fill?
- ec109685 3y ago
  Google goes to great lengths to increase diversity: https://about.google/belonging/diversity-annual-report/2021/hiring/ https://about.google/belonging/diversity-annual-report/2021/...
  - davely 3y ago
    Not that you’re arguing for or against, but I thought I’d drop an interesting link to a 2020 McKinsey and Co study that shows more diverse companies generally outperform their peers. [1] Is there any wonder that Google and other (not exclusive to tech) companies desire this? [1] https://www.mckinsey.com/featured-insights/diversity-and-inclusion/diversity-wins-how-inclusion-matters https://www.mckinsey.com/featured-insights/diversity-and-inc...
    - LunaSea 3y ago
      Is that the same McKinsey that helped start opioid epidemic?

manquer 3y ago

Not necessarily, fresher or graduate trainee programs are this effectively. Large companies especially conglomerates do this by hiring freshers and investing in their learning and benefit by paying a bit lesser than the market over the years . Apprenticeship has also been successful economically at even a scale of one master/sole proprietor for centuries. The key is to derive value while they learn, not split the learning and earning parts completely

sarchertech 3y ago
Apprenticeships also take 3-4 years on average.