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I very much appreciate your comment, and at the same time am interested to challenge this idea of "the illusion of music". What about music is an illusion? Mayb
by malloryerik 2y ago
I very much appreciate your comment, and at the same time am interested to challenge this idea of "the illusion of music". What about music is an illusion? Maybe this was just an unfortunate phrasing, and yet it might touch on the heart of the matter. Music is a language of relationships, indeed it is nothing but relationships, in time, pitch, timbre, volume, voice, number and so on, non-symbolic and changing relationships of sound carrying aesthetic and emotional feeling and meaning. It is both objective and subjective -- objective in the sense that "4 + 4 = 8" is an undeniably more beautiful statement than "4 + 4 = 6", and subjective in the sense that you and I may have different favorite numbers and also we may react differently to various medications or prefer different foods. Music is external and internal, social and individual. What it is not ever is an illusion as then it would not exist. (It may express illusion, or become more like a creator of illusions, for example when the orchestra tries to conjure up the illusion of a thunder storm.) Now, one might be tempted to counter that the kind of "meaning" music carries is itself an illusion, an epiphenomenon maybe, but then why should one care about anything at all, including AGI, since the kind of meaning that music carries is the same as the meaning of love, of hate, of good and bad, pains and pleasures, and hopes and regrets, tragedies and successes?
Maybe a reason for calling music an illusion is to try to point out that it's all in our heads. Sure, the physical instruments are over there, but they are just some atoms and molecules rattling about creating vibrations that, like everything ultimately, share the meaninglessness of the physical universe of just more material stuff (ignoring the quantum and the unknown). In which case though life seems also to look more like an illusion. Ah but the meaningless vibrations enter our ears and are processed and become music, so like color there is none but in our heads, thus illusion? But these notions also fall apart. The redness of apples isn't all in our heads; it requires a certain relationship to light frequencies that we see as redness. It's not an illusion it's just what red looks like through a living human body. If not through our senses and brain, and then mind, where should we experience it?
Music is only ever meaningless if it is unheard, as apples can only not be red when they are unseen (or are Granny Smiths).
So music is only meaningless if there is nobody -- no body -- to listen. And maybe that's where all of this leads. Your AGI needs to be embodied and alive.
- odyssey7 2y agoMy use of illusion was not intended to diminish the significance of music. To the contrary, I meant to distinguish it as an exceptional perceptual phenomenon which reveals important aspects of the inner workings of human experience. Somehow, the physical situations of our bodies become perceptual experiences. Usually, those perceptions are mere descriptions of the physical world, for physically navigating it. Some exceptions exist, such as music and optical illusions. The translation from air pressure fluctuations to a tree branch falling is one type of experience, the link to love or hope is another. Rather than being insignificant, my sense is that music understanding will prove to be an emergent capability available in whatever architecture might produce humanlike AGI, because it connects human perception and cognition too thoroughly to not be baked-in. Going further, building models to understand music would be an excellent step toward embodied AI with humanlike cognition.
- andoando 2y agoThis is something I've been thinking about the last 3-4 years and desperately what I am trying to do. I have what I think some interesting ideas and implementations, but no one quite grasps my thought process and I am stuck between believing Im onto something and that I am furiously chasing nothing.
- odyssey7 2y agoMy experience in pursuing this is that I applied to about a dozen on-campus CS grad programs, over the course of two years, noting this research direction, but those applications were all rejected. You would think with the emergence of generative AI that there could be some interest. I suspect the application was of interest, but that universities have a shortage of experts in generative AI, and that a multidisciplinary project like this might be misunderstood within a CS department or would have to be accepted by a very specific advisor who may not exist. The best chance might be to convince investors to help assemble the right team and to provide a viable R&D budget.
- andoando 2y ago