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I think you are commenting on the "stealing" reply and not my original comment. And, I think you are making my point stronger. OpenAI could easily (and will) p

by xrd 3y ago

I think you are commenting on the "stealing" reply and not my original comment. And, I think you are making my point stronger. OpenAI could easily (and will) put out a blog post or tweet saying "next models do inference 2.5x faster!" Koliko did that, or maybe he didn't and someone else put words in his mouth. I don't really care: I can validate and test your comments here (and they are great!) and I can try his experiments myself. I cannot do that against "GPT-5-2.5x faster (c) 2024"-42B (because it isn't released yet publicly). Putting a paper and some vague ideas on Arvix isn't really doing much these days except adding to the confusion. Truly open work like koliko is doing is really exciting and feels like it can only be done against truly open models like Mistral. Oh wait, Mistral isn't fully open either (ducks...).

observationist 3y ago
There used to be a class of software called freeware - you could download and use it without restriction, you just couldn't resell it, or have the source to modify it. Llama and similar models are like freeware - an inscrutable binary blob crafted to work with other software, except instead of a VM or native OS environment, you have llama.cpp or similar software that runs the AI model. Mistral is open source, in that you can do anything the Apache license allows you to do, even package it into your own product and resell or modify it. We're missing the dataset details, the source to the software that produces the model, similar to not having access to an operating system and special compiler software. That's not a huge deal, because people don't have the resources to make use of those large datasets or the Mistral training software, which is likely highly tailored to their own training and development pipeline, and wouldn't do much good for anyone without at least a pod of A100's of their own. Weights available and other terms are being thrown around, and Meta and the like are calling their stuff "open" but that use of the term bears little resemblance to the use of the word by the open source community. The public Mistral models have open source licenses. The model can be used like open source software. The terms are permissive and free, requiring only attribution. Meta's license scheme is novel and not open, with arbitrary lawyerese and absolutely, 100% will bite someone in the ass when the threshold between "annoying to sue" and "profitable to sue" gets exceeded by someone using Llama in a way that's technically incorrect. Right now, Meta wants the goodwill more than they want a couple million dollars chasing a couple dozen startups. If the model doesn't have an open source license, it's not open. It might be freeware. Llama is freeware. You can, technically, do whatever you want to it, but try to not attract too much notice or be too successful with it. Mistral, by using Apache licensing, couldn't go after you even if they wanted to, unless you do something deliberately stupid.
- oceanplexian 3y ago
  > If the model doesn't have an open source license, it's not open. Actually, OSS comes with tons of strings attached that make the term open dubious. And there are many ways they could come after you legally. Apache, GPL, etc all have terms and conditions, you have to contribute back X Y and Z, agree to our manifesto, and so on. The only truly free license is MIT. Go build a billion dollar business, change it however you want with no strings attached and you can express the license terms in a single paragraph.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - observationist 3y ago
    Apache is stricter because it requires you to list all the modifications you make to the original software. A copy of the license, with copyright and attribution notices, must be included in the source code and any modifications. A specific section on contributions outlines the conditions for accepting external contributions to the project. The MIT license requires a copyright notice, but it does not have explicit requirements for the license or attribution notices. source: https://www.mend.io/blog/top-10-apache-license-questions-answered/ https://www.mend.io/blog/top-10-apache-license-questions-ans... Apache 2.0 is almost as permissive as MIT, and better suited for some cases. I love the MIT license, as it allows the most freedom for users and creators, across the board. Apache 2.0 is second best, but might better in a formalized organization that wants more structure and formalized documentation requirements.

by xrd 3y ago

observationist 3y ago

There used to be a class of software called freeware - you could download and use it without restriction, you just couldn't resell it, or have the source to modify it. Llama and similar models are like freeware - an inscrutable binary blob crafted to work with other software, except instead of a VM or native OS environment, you have llama.cpp or similar software that runs the AI model. Mistral is open source, in that you can do anything the Apache license allows you to do, even package it into your own product and resell or modify it. We're missing the dataset details, the source to the software that produces the model, similar to not having access to an operating system and special compiler software. That's not a huge deal, because people don't have the resources to make use of those large datasets or the Mistral training software, which is likely highly tailored to their own training and development pipeline, and wouldn't do much good for anyone without at least a pod of A100's of their own. Weights available and other terms are being thrown around, and Meta and the like are calling their stuff "open" but that use of the term bears little resemblance to the use of the word by the open source community. The public Mistral models have open source licenses. The model can be used like open source software. The terms are permissive and free, requiring only attribution. Meta's license scheme is novel and not open, with arbitrary lawyerese and absolutely, 100% will bite someone in the ass when the threshold between "annoying to sue" and "profitable to sue" gets exceeded by someone using Llama in a way that's technically incorrect. Right now, Meta wants the goodwill more than they want a couple million dollars chasing a couple dozen startups. If the model doesn't have an open source license, it's not open. It might be freeware. Llama is freeware. You can, technically, do whatever you want to it, but try to not attract too much notice or be too successful with it. Mistral, by using Apache licensing, couldn't go after you even if they wanted to, unless you do something deliberately stupid.

oceanplexian 3y ago
> If the model doesn't have an open source license, it's not open. Actually, OSS comes with tons of strings attached that make the term open dubious. And there are many ways they could come after you legally. Apache, GPL, etc all have terms and conditions, you have to contribute back X Y and Z, agree to our manifesto, and so on. The only truly free license is MIT. Go build a billion dollar business, change it however you want with no strings attached and you can express the license terms in a single paragraph.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- observationist 3y ago
  Apache is stricter because it requires you to list all the modifications you make to the original software. A copy of the license, with copyright and attribution notices, must be included in the source code and any modifications. A specific section on contributions outlines the conditions for accepting external contributions to the project. The MIT license requires a copyright notice, but it does not have explicit requirements for the license or attribution notices. source: https://www.mend.io/blog/top-10-apache-license-questions-answered/ https://www.mend.io/blog/top-10-apache-license-questions-ans... Apache 2.0 is almost as permissive as MIT, and better suited for some cases. I love the MIT license, as it allows the most freedom for users and creators, across the board. Apache 2.0 is second best, but might better in a formalized organization that wants more structure and formalized documentation requirements.