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"everything is possible" except for a synthesized instrument that actually has the expressive range of a real violin or saxophone. Even a synthesized piano is n

"everything is possible" except for a synthesized instrument that actually has the expressive range of a real violin or saxophone. Even a synthesized piano is noticeably lifeless compared to the real thing (synthesized piano bass notes are especially thin).

relaxing 2y ago
My trombone is lousy at reproducing the sound of a cello, but I don’t consider it inferior. More to the point, the synthesizer has more options for expressiveness through change in timbre, glissando, microtones, etc.
- kazinator 2y ago
  But nobody made the claim that everything is possible with a trombone.
  - postalrat 2y ago
    Is there a synthesizer that claims anything is possible?
    - 8bitsrule 2y ago
      For those with the patience, I'd guess that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wavetable_synthesis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wavetable_synthesis would come closest to that ... with the 'right' controllers... and maybe more than one performer!
kazinator 2y ago
Only the the best grand pianos have any bass. Your cheap 43" tall console piano for apartment use will not have much bass to speak off. The strings are too short, the box is too small. We have to restrict ourselves to True Scotsman's pianos. Bass is easy to obtain out of a synthesizer: just make sure you have a subwoofer in the speaker system. It doesn't have to be a True Scotsman's synth or subwoofer.
scns 2y ago
Well, you may be right. But there are musicians able to touch me deeply with synthesizers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4R8RaCLzGgE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4R8RaCLzGgE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWgXVbI5ZRw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWgXVbI5ZRw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjIzyeQrG7U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjIzyeQrG7U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PEDhoRruflk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PEDhoRruflk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJe1JKzcM8s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJe1JKzcM8s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0zRm5SjfQU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0zRm5SjfQU
elihu 2y ago
It depends on what synth you're using, and how you're controlling it. Most synthesizers and controllers are profoundly lacking in expressive control, and of course a synthesizer that just plays back a recorded sample of a real piano isn't going to sound as good as being in a room with the real thing. Just because the mainstream synthesizer world has been sort of stuck in a rut for 40 years doesn't mean this is the best we can do. There is, however, some real progress being made. For controllers, check out the Linnstrument, the Osmose, the Continuum. MPE was added to the MIDI spec a few years back, which makes it a lot more feasible to sell expressive instruments and have them "just work" with existing synths. As for synthesizers, just about anything is possible. Physical modelling is becoming more popular.
- mrob 2y ago
  A real piano is also profoundly lacking in expressive control over timbre (excluding extended techniques like half-pedaling or directly touching the strings that hardly ever show up in the repertoire). The only control the piano gives you over note timbre is how hard you press the key. Once you've done that, the hammer disconnects from the key and flies through the air out of your control. A keyboard with polyphonic aftertouch, such as the Yamaha CS-80 (famously played by Vangelis), is objectively more expressive than a piano.
  - nicklecompte 2y ago
    > The only control the piano gives you over note timbre is how hard you press the key. This is just not true at all. The action of a piano is a very sophisticated mechanism that conveys both acceleration and velocity, along with the initial position of the key (e.g. fully released or half-pressed). This allows for a huge amount of tonal variation, though it's more subtle than a ribbon controller, and obviously a synth can do many things than a piano cannot.
    - mrob 2y ago
      The piano action physically disconnects the hammer from the key after you press it. Here's a diagram: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_(piano)#/media/File:Fortepian_-_mechanizm_angielski.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_(piano)#/media/File:For... All the complexity you mention only affects how the repetition lever (part 9) briefly bumps against the hammer shank (part 8). The only information this imparts to the hammer is velocity, and once it happens there's no more contact until the hammer falls back down. The hammer can't somehow remember what caused it to travel at a specific velocity and strike the string differently. There's only a single degree of freedom in its movement. What you perceive as "a huge amount of tonal variation" is mostly note timing.
butterchaos 2y ago
I am both a classical guitar player and long time synth head. "Everything is possible" is a bug and not a feature in many ways. It certainly is possible to synthesize an expressive instrument to the level you describe but what usually happens is you move on to something else. "What does this knob do??" Wahahahaha That kind of thing is just so much fun compared the guitar that you have to actually learn to play.

relaxing 2y ago

My trombone is lousy at reproducing the sound of a cello, but I don’t consider it inferior. More to the point, the synthesizer has more options for expressiveness through change in timbre, glissando, microtones, etc.

kazinator 2y ago
But nobody made the claim that everything is possible with a trombone.
- postalrat 2y ago
  Is there a synthesizer that claims anything is possible?
  - 8bitsrule 2y ago
    For those with the patience, I'd guess that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wavetable_synthesis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wavetable_synthesis would come closest to that ... with the 'right' controllers... and maybe more than one performer!

kazinator 2y ago

Only the the best grand pianos have any bass. Your cheap 43" tall console piano for apartment use will not have much bass to speak off. The strings are too short, the box is too small. We have to restrict ourselves to True Scotsman's pianos. Bass is easy to obtain out of a synthesizer: just make sure you have a subwoofer in the speaker system. It doesn't have to be a True Scotsman's synth or subwoofer.

scns 2y ago

Well, you may be right. But there are musicians able to touch me deeply with synthesizers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4R8RaCLzGgE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4R8RaCLzGgE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWgXVbI5ZRw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWgXVbI5ZRw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjIzyeQrG7U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjIzyeQrG7U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PEDhoRruflk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PEDhoRruflk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJe1JKzcM8s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJe1JKzcM8s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0zRm5SjfQU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0zRm5SjfQU

elihu 2y ago

It depends on what synth you're using, and how you're controlling it. Most synthesizers and controllers are profoundly lacking in expressive control, and of course a synthesizer that just plays back a recorded sample of a real piano isn't going to sound as good as being in a room with the real thing. Just because the mainstream synthesizer world has been sort of stuck in a rut for 40 years doesn't mean this is the best we can do. There is, however, some real progress being made. For controllers, check out the Linnstrument, the Osmose, the Continuum. MPE was added to the MIDI spec a few years back, which makes it a lot more feasible to sell expressive instruments and have them "just work" with existing synths. As for synthesizers, just about anything is possible. Physical modelling is becoming more popular.

mrob 2y ago
A real piano is also profoundly lacking in expressive control over timbre (excluding extended techniques like half-pedaling or directly touching the strings that hardly ever show up in the repertoire). The only control the piano gives you over note timbre is how hard you press the key. Once you've done that, the hammer disconnects from the key and flies through the air out of your control. A keyboard with polyphonic aftertouch, such as the Yamaha CS-80 (famously played by Vangelis), is objectively more expressive than a piano.
- nicklecompte 2y ago
  > The only control the piano gives you over note timbre is how hard you press the key. This is just not true at all. The action of a piano is a very sophisticated mechanism that conveys both acceleration and velocity, along with the initial position of the key (e.g. fully released or half-pressed). This allows for a huge amount of tonal variation, though it's more subtle than a ribbon controller, and obviously a synth can do many things than a piano cannot.
  - mrob 2y ago
    The piano action physically disconnects the hammer from the key after you press it. Here's a diagram: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_(piano)#/media/File:Fortepian_-_mechanizm_angielski.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_(piano)#/media/File:For... All the complexity you mention only affects how the repetition lever (part 9) briefly bumps against the hammer shank (part 8). The only information this imparts to the hammer is velocity, and once it happens there's no more contact until the hammer falls back down. The hammer can't somehow remember what caused it to travel at a specific velocity and strike the string differently. There's only a single degree of freedom in its movement. What you perceive as "a huge amount of tonal variation" is mostly note timing.

butterchaos 2y ago

I am both a classical guitar player and long time synth head. "Everything is possible" is a bug and not a feature in many ways. It certainly is possible to synthesize an expressive instrument to the level you describe but what usually happens is you move on to something else. "What does this knob do??" Wahahahaha That kind of thing is just so much fun compared the guitar that you have to actually learn to play.