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As as ipaddr points out it seems this got promoted by an algorithm. But that aside I always felt like Django's music aged quiet poorly. A few country/blues/jaz

by vvpan 2y ago

As as ipaddr points out it seems this got promoted by an algorithm. But that aside I always felt like Django's music aged quiet poorly. A few country/blues/jazz and related styles from the first half of 20th century have. Big band - did not age well and effectively vanished as far I can see. Rag time, a very popular style for a couple of decades, gives me some enjoyment but mostly as a curiosity. That is all in contrast to a massive body of jazz and blues music from the era that has not aged a tiny bit, like pretty much anything on Harry Smith’s "Anthology of American Folk Music". Say, for being zany and of the times "King Kong Kitchie Kitchie Ki-Me-O" feels as real and pleasurable as anything and keeps finding its way into pop culture.

mattpallissard 2y ago
It's interesting that you mentioned big band with Django, as I have both lumped together in my head as well; things that are much more impressive live than on a recording. Stepping into a venue where people are actually dancing to live to a jazz or swing band, and to not just hear but feel the deafening blast of horns are things you just can't get from a recording. I get a weird nostalgia for those live moments when I hear recordings. Also FWIW I like Django, but I don't know if that it's aged poorly or if it's just mostly the same across a lot of his material and that the genre itself was played out over time. It's become "hokey" as some would call it and, perhaps, since we were never there we apply our modern perceptions to it. That said, a few bangers still stand out on the recordings and some of the solos and tempo changes are cool, even by today's standards.
- cge 2y ago
  >Stepping into a venue where people are actually dancing to live to a jazz or swing band, and to not just hear but feel the deafening blast of horns are things you just can't get from a recording. Dancing bal to a gypsy jazz group at Le Colonial in SF years ago, the space cramped, the tables pushed back a few feet around, the crowd dancing and mingling amongst the tables, half knowing each other, at the twilight of a dying facet of the city... I don't remember if the musicians were very good, or even whether it was just a solo guitarist---I recall he'd played at a party a day or two before---but in that moment the music was more enchanting than any grand concert I had been to. Even live, but in a concert hall, I expect it would have been unsatisfying. By itself, except for particular technical appreciation when at Django's level, gypsy jazz is rather monotonous. I've heard styles that need similar contexts, played out of place in concert halls, like Max Raabe, and while the musicians are excellent, it feels lacking. But in the right context, the context it was born in, it is amazing.
adfm 2y ago
Messy Nessy is a popular blog and Django Reinhardt is "considered by some the greatest guitarist who ever lived," so I find it odd that you'd declare that his music hasn't aged well. Adrian, Simon, Jacob, and the folks at LJW appreciated it enough to name their Python Web framework after him and we're still talking about it 18+ years later. There are entire festivals that happen around the world dedicated to his music! https://www.djangobooks.com/forum/discussion/19276/upcoming-gypsy-jazz-festivals-in-europe-in-2024 https://www.djangobooks.com/forum/discussion/19276/upcoming-... https://gypsyjazzfest.com https://gypsyjazzfest.com https://sites.google.com/view/monktonarts/gypsy-jazz-festival-2024 https://sites.google.com/view/monktonarts/gypsy-jazz-festiva... https://www.thejazzmann.com/news/article/gypsy-jazz-festival-of-london-2024-programme-announced https://www.thejazzmann.com/news/article/gypsy-jazz-festival... https://djangoinjune.com https://djangoinjune.com
dang 2y ago
Algorithms don't promote things on HN.
- dredmorbius 2y ago
  So far as I understand workings, that may be true in a strict sense, but algorithms and various site affordances can be at play. HN specifically penalises certain sites, and possibly keywords or themes.[1] And there are algorithms such as the flamewar detector which can kick in for specific threads.[2] Much as a subsidy may be seen as an inverted penalty, an inverted penalty is a promotion. That's a niggling argument, but in the interests of fairness and transparency, possibly worth noting. There's also the 2nd chance queue, as noted in this thread here: <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40069963 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40069963>. Though that's a manual, and not automated or algorithmic, adjustment. I'll also note that this Mostly Seems to Improve Overall Site Quality, and I'm not criticising the practice, but clarifying it. ________________________________ Notes: 1. See, e.g., <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10448419 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10448419> and <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34850588 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34850588>. 2. See, e.g., <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8461596 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8461596> and <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39236061 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39236061>.
javier123454321 2y ago
I mean, he is often cited as one of the best guitarrists and jazz players in history, as well as one of the most influential. There is an entire style of music which basically can be described as attempting to sound like him, with an active community of people playing circuits, festivals, and regularly gigging musicians exclusively building entire careers on playing Jazz Manouche. I disagree with your take, and have trouble understanding what you mean.
ryanisnan 2y ago
This is meta-commentary about HackerNews in general. Your statement about this post was addressed by dang directly, and maybe that's why your comment is being downvoted into oblivion. This feels to me like throwing the baby out with the bath water. That is sad, given the "meat" of your comment is inquisitive, thought-provoking, and politely delivered. Has anyone else felt frustrated by the voting patterns of the HN community lately?
- TeaBrain 2y ago
  I wouldn't characterize it as thought-provoking or inquisitive. They criticize the music as if they are an royally appointed arbiter of good music, but never get to the heart of what they are actually criticizing, only remarking that the music is no longer popular and that it is not to their taste. They leverage this criticism of it not being to their taste to make the judgement that it not age well, as if they are making some universal self-evident observation, which I found absolutely tasteless and unconstructive. Given the down votes others may have felt the same way.
  - ryanisnan 2y ago
    Thanks for the response. What I appreciated about their comment was that they framed the opinion as such, e.g "I always felt like Django's music aged quiet poorly" or "Rag time, a very popular style for a couple of decades, gives me some enjoyment but mostly as a curiosity." But then OP gave an example of another artist where they felt like there was a stark contrast. That's interesting to me, because I don't know who Harry Smith is.
mannyv 2y ago
Survival in the music industry is commercially driven, not artistically driven.

by vvpan 2y ago

mattpallissard 2y ago

It's interesting that you mentioned big band with Django, as I have both lumped together in my head as well; things that are much more impressive live than on a recording. Stepping into a venue where people are actually dancing to live to a jazz or swing band, and to not just hear but feel the deafening blast of horns are things you just can't get from a recording. I get a weird nostalgia for those live moments when I hear recordings. Also FWIW I like Django, but I don't know if that it's aged poorly or if it's just mostly the same across a lot of his material and that the genre itself was played out over time. It's become "hokey" as some would call it and, perhaps, since we were never there we apply our modern perceptions to it. That said, a few bangers still stand out on the recordings and some of the solos and tempo changes are cool, even by today's standards.

cge 2y ago
>Stepping into a venue where people are actually dancing to live to a jazz or swing band, and to not just hear but feel the deafening blast of horns are things you just can't get from a recording. Dancing bal to a gypsy jazz group at Le Colonial in SF years ago, the space cramped, the tables pushed back a few feet around, the crowd dancing and mingling amongst the tables, half knowing each other, at the twilight of a dying facet of the city... I don't remember if the musicians were very good, or even whether it was just a solo guitarist---I recall he'd played at a party a day or two before---but in that moment the music was more enchanting than any grand concert I had been to. Even live, but in a concert hall, I expect it would have been unsatisfying. By itself, except for particular technical appreciation when at Django's level, gypsy jazz is rather monotonous. I've heard styles that need similar contexts, played out of place in concert halls, like Max Raabe, and while the musicians are excellent, it feels lacking. But in the right context, the context it was born in, it is amazing.

adfm 2y ago

Messy Nessy is a popular blog and Django Reinhardt is "considered by some the greatest guitarist who ever lived," so I find it odd that you'd declare that his music hasn't aged well. Adrian, Simon, Jacob, and the folks at LJW appreciated it enough to name their Python Web framework after him and we're still talking about it 18+ years later. There are entire festivals that happen around the world dedicated to his music! https://www.djangobooks.com/forum/discussion/19276/upcoming-gypsy-jazz-festivals-in-europe-in-2024 https://www.djangobooks.com/forum/discussion/19276/upcoming-... https://gypsyjazzfest.com https://gypsyjazzfest.com https://sites.google.com/view/monktonarts/gypsy-jazz-festival-2024 https://sites.google.com/view/monktonarts/gypsy-jazz-festiva... https://www.thejazzmann.com/news/article/gypsy-jazz-festival-of-london-2024-programme-announced https://www.thejazzmann.com/news/article/gypsy-jazz-festival... https://djangoinjune.com https://djangoinjune.com

dang 2y ago

Algorithms don't promote things on HN.

dredmorbius 2y ago
So far as I understand workings, that may be true in a strict sense, but algorithms and various site affordances can be at play. HN specifically penalises certain sites, and possibly keywords or themes.[1] And there are algorithms such as the flamewar detector which can kick in for specific threads.[2] Much as a subsidy may be seen as an inverted penalty, an inverted penalty is a promotion. That's a niggling argument, but in the interests of fairness and transparency, possibly worth noting. There's also the 2nd chance queue, as noted in this thread here: <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40069963 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40069963>. Though that's a manual, and not automated or algorithmic, adjustment. I'll also note that this Mostly Seems to Improve Overall Site Quality, and I'm not criticising the practice, but clarifying it. ________________________________ Notes: 1. See, e.g., <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10448419 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10448419> and <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34850588 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34850588>. 2. See, e.g., <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8461596 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8461596> and <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39236061 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39236061>.

javier123454321 2y ago

I mean, he is often cited as one of the best guitarrists and jazz players in history, as well as one of the most influential. There is an entire style of music which basically can be described as attempting to sound like him, with an active community of people playing circuits, festivals, and regularly gigging musicians exclusively building entire careers on playing Jazz Manouche. I disagree with your take, and have trouble understanding what you mean.

ryanisnan 2y ago

This is meta-commentary about HackerNews in general. Your statement about this post was addressed by dang directly, and maybe that's why your comment is being downvoted into oblivion. This feels to me like throwing the baby out with the bath water. That is sad, given the "meat" of your comment is inquisitive, thought-provoking, and politely delivered. Has anyone else felt frustrated by the voting patterns of the HN community lately?

TeaBrain 2y ago
I wouldn't characterize it as thought-provoking or inquisitive. They criticize the music as if they are an royally appointed arbiter of good music, but never get to the heart of what they are actually criticizing, only remarking that the music is no longer popular and that it is not to their taste. They leverage this criticism of it not being to their taste to make the judgement that it not age well, as if they are making some universal self-evident observation, which I found absolutely tasteless and unconstructive. Given the down votes others may have felt the same way.
- ryanisnan 2y ago
  Thanks for the response. What I appreciated about their comment was that they framed the opinion as such, e.g "I always felt like Django's music aged quiet poorly" or "Rag time, a very popular style for a couple of decades, gives me some enjoyment but mostly as a curiosity." But then OP gave an example of another artist where they felt like there was a stark contrast. That's interesting to me, because I don't know who Harry Smith is.

mannyv 2y ago

Survival in the music industry is commercially driven, not artistically driven.