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If people are arguing that a Jewish peace advocacy group is antisemitic, I think they've lost all conception of what that word means. They're using the word "an

If people are arguing that a Jewish peace advocacy group is antisemitic, I think they've lost all conception of what that word means. They're using the word "antisemite" to mean anti-zionist or anti-Israel, or anti-occupation. "Anti-semitism" is a hatred of Jewish people or discriminatory attitudes towards them. There is a large contingency of Jewish people who believe Jews are better than other people (this idea is at least one of the beliefs underpinning the existence of Israel). Calling Jews who push back against this narrative anti-semitic is like calling white people who oppose white supremacy anti-white.

tptacek 3y ago
There are lots of white anti-white racists, there are Black anti-Black racists, and there are indeed Jewish antisemites. You're adopting a position of shock and disbelief that (some) Jewish people find JVP problematic. I'm telling you: that's not helping the credibility of your argument, because this is an old, well-covered controversy, and the points that JVP's critics raise aren't superficial. You don't have to agree with them, but to suggest that those critics have "lost all conception" of what "antisemitism" means mostly suggests that you're unfamiliar with JVP. (I don't know what I believe about JVP! My confidence in any assessment is very low. What I do know, though, is that if I were doing persuasive work, like, say, getting a ceasefire resolution passed in my municipality, I would do my best to keep JVP's name off the enterprise.) For a clearer example of this phenomenon, unrelated to JVP, see Jewish Currents, also frequently cited in discussions to insulate arguments from accusations of antisemitism.
- pcthrowaway 3y ago
  I'm curious about these white anti-white "racists" or black anti-black racists. I realize that people internalize racism in different ways so I definitely don't discount the idea that black people may conduct themselves in ways that demonstrate prejudice against black people, but I've heard never heard accusations that PoC solidarity groups represented by black people (which would be the closest example I can think of) are racist against black people. Perhaps a better example of what I think you're trying to communicate would be "trad-wives" who reinforce certain elements of the patriarchy. The prime difference between trad-wives and groups like JVP, I think, is that trad-wives advocate for trad-wifery because traditional gender roles appeal to their values or interests, rather than out of a sense of social justice and equity (which are likely not important to them). However, I'm not at all shocked that there are Jewish people who find JVP problematic, and I'm not sure where you got that idea. I'd guess something like 50% of practicing Jews in the diaspora hold beliefs that Jews are intrinsically better than non-jews, and perhaps a sizeable minority of non-practicing Jews as well. This is based on my own experiences growing up in a Jewish community as well as the arguments used by Zionist Jews in support of Israel. The Jewish school I went to literally taught that Jews had a more legitimate claim to peace and safety in Israel than the Palestinians, by virtue of being the chosen people. Reducing all criticism of the ethno-state that results from such beliefs to anti-semitism is an underhanded tactic that twists the meaning of the word in order to manipulate public opinion. I don't know too much about JVP as they don't have presence in my country, but I just did some reading (including their core values[1] which are far from anti-semitic) and found a lot of the same tired arguments: their "admin" lives in lebanon (not said: one of 18 admins on their facebook page), it's a front for non-Jewish antisemites to rally under the banner of Jewishness (not said: their board and leadership are all Jewish), they said "XYZ" which can be interpreted as antisemitic (not said: either an anti-semitic person or even a plant said something while claiming to represent the group, or what was said was a criticism of mainstream Jewish Zionism taken out of context) Add to that a lot of the same criticisms typically levied at leftist groups, some of which may actually be good-faith, fair criticisms, but unrelated to anti-semitism. I certainly agree there can be Jewish anti-semites, but they're much more likely to gravitate to the right than the left. [1]: https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/about/#mandate https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/about/#mandate edit: I'll say this one additional thing: I've personally observed a high correlation between Jews who call anti-Zionist advocates anti-semitic, and Jews who secretly or not-so-secretly have a belief that Jewish people are inherently better than non-Jews (and for many this goes down to ethnicity, I'm not talking just about spiritual practice). To me, it seems like they're generally oblivious to how similar beliefs (by any group that holds them) are a type of problematic prejudice, and critical of leftist Jews because they represent a threat to those deeply-held beliefs of supremacy.
  - tptacek 3y ago
    I'd guess something like 50% of practicing Jews in the diaspora hold beliefs that Jews are intrinsically better than non-jews Whoah, wtf? I don't care what your background is: no, not OK. I had a relatively straightforward non-normative point to make about how controversial JVP is, which you can easily Google to verify. I wasn't even here to tell you you were wrong: you asked a question, it had a straightforward answer, I provided it. My answer was not out of left field: the ADL literally has a page on JVP, up in the first page of search results on Google. I'm not interested in litigating the intellectual vices of "practicing Jews" writ large.
    - Boatfaceing 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - pcthrowaway 3y ago
        I think Thomas (whose posts I overall have a lot of respect for) misunderstood my initial question as an indication of surprise at the mere accusation, and felt the need to explain why such accusations of anti-semitism are unsurprising. Read that way, I can see why he thought the ADL statement on JVP might be relevant and accurate (it certainly does accurately represent the views of a number of people within the Jewish community, though I think many also use the allegations of anti-semitism tactically to distract from legitimate criticism of the actions wrought by an attitude of ethno-religious exceptionalism). To be fair, as a descendant of Jewish holocaust survivors myself, I'm glad there's a high-profile group that makes it their mission to bring light to actual anti-semitism when it occurs, but unfortunately the ADL is influenced by actors I believe to be operating in bad-faith and has strayed from their mission in order to hand-wave away legitimate criticism of actions stemming from prejudice that exists within the Jewish community. The Jewish community is by no means unique here; there are elements of prejudice within every demographic, and I'd wager that a near-majority of practitioners of every religion have an attitude of exceptionalism, though Judaism is unusual in having religious practices very tightly coupled with an ethnic identity that often excludes practitioners of Judaism-the-religion who aren't considered ethnically Jewish, or are an unconventional kind of ethnically Jewish (see [1] and [2]). But I suppose to someone less familiar with the topic, criticism of prejudice that exists within a minority population can be hard to distinguish from prejudice against that minority population, so I can understand what seemed like a strongly oppositional reaction to my earlier post. If anyone is this deep in the thread and wants modern perspectives by well-respected scholars, Gabor Mate (a holocaust survivor himself) and Noam Chomsky (another Jew who has been unfairly accused of anti-semitism and holocaust denialism by the ADL) have spoken extensively about related issues. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_Jewish_communities#Jews_of_color https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_Jewish_communities#J... [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_Jewish_communities#Sephardim_and_Mizrahim https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_Jewish_communities#S...
- r00fus 3y ago
  > There are lots of white anti-white racists Sorry I think you lost the plot here. Can you give me a noteworthy example of such a person or group?
  - tptacek 3y ago
    Seriously? You want me to provide examples of white people who make unjustifiable negative assumptions about the characteristics of white people?
    - r00fus 3y ago
      My point is that such people exist doesn't mean they represent anyone other than as an argument point. These people have zero influence or access to levers in politics. They are convenient idiots for the opposite viewpoint.
      - tptacek 3y ago
        We're talking past each other. It is obviously not my claim that most Jewish people are antisemitic.
  - inemesitaffia 3y ago
    Google Gemini. See the person that posted here he'd find it odd for someone to request photos of a white family because white only families are sus

tptacek 3y ago

There are lots of white anti-white racists, there are Black anti-Black racists, and there are indeed Jewish antisemites. You're adopting a position of shock and disbelief that (some) Jewish people find JVP problematic. I'm telling you: that's not helping the credibility of your argument, because this is an old, well-covered controversy, and the points that JVP's critics raise aren't superficial. You don't have to agree with them, but to suggest that those critics have "lost all conception" of what "antisemitism" means mostly suggests that you're unfamiliar with JVP. (I don't know what I believe about JVP! My confidence in any assessment is very low. What I do know, though, is that if I were doing persuasive work, like, say, getting a ceasefire resolution passed in my municipality, I would do my best to keep JVP's name off the enterprise.) For a clearer example of this phenomenon, unrelated to JVP, see Jewish Currents, also frequently cited in discussions to insulate arguments from accusations of antisemitism.

pcthrowaway 3y ago
I'm curious about these white anti-white "racists" or black anti-black racists. I realize that people internalize racism in different ways so I definitely don't discount the idea that black people may conduct themselves in ways that demonstrate prejudice against black people, but I've heard never heard accusations that PoC solidarity groups represented by black people (which would be the closest example I can think of) are racist against black people. Perhaps a better example of what I think you're trying to communicate would be "trad-wives" who reinforce certain elements of the patriarchy. The prime difference between trad-wives and groups like JVP, I think, is that trad-wives advocate for trad-wifery because traditional gender roles appeal to their values or interests, rather than out of a sense of social justice and equity (which are likely not important to them). However, I'm not at all shocked that there are Jewish people who find JVP problematic, and I'm not sure where you got that idea. I'd guess something like 50% of practicing Jews in the diaspora hold beliefs that Jews are intrinsically better than non-jews, and perhaps a sizeable minority of non-practicing Jews as well. This is based on my own experiences growing up in a Jewish community as well as the arguments used by Zionist Jews in support of Israel. The Jewish school I went to literally taught that Jews had a more legitimate claim to peace and safety in Israel than the Palestinians, by virtue of being the chosen people. Reducing all criticism of the ethno-state that results from such beliefs to anti-semitism is an underhanded tactic that twists the meaning of the word in order to manipulate public opinion. I don't know too much about JVP as they don't have presence in my country, but I just did some reading (including their core values[1] which are far from anti-semitic) and found a lot of the same tired arguments: their "admin" lives in lebanon (not said: one of 18 admins on their facebook page), it's a front for non-Jewish antisemites to rally under the banner of Jewishness (not said: their board and leadership are all Jewish), they said "XYZ" which can be interpreted as antisemitic (not said: either an anti-semitic person or even a plant said something while claiming to represent the group, or what was said was a criticism of mainstream Jewish Zionism taken out of context) Add to that a lot of the same criticisms typically levied at leftist groups, some of which may actually be good-faith, fair criticisms, but unrelated to anti-semitism. I certainly agree there can be Jewish anti-semites, but they're much more likely to gravitate to the right than the left. [1]: https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/about/#mandate https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/about/#mandate edit: I'll say this one additional thing: I've personally observed a high correlation between Jews who call anti-Zionist advocates anti-semitic, and Jews who secretly or not-so-secretly have a belief that Jewish people are inherently better than non-Jews (and for many this goes down to ethnicity, I'm not talking just about spiritual practice). To me, it seems like they're generally oblivious to how similar beliefs (by any group that holds them) are a type of problematic prejudice, and critical of leftist Jews because they represent a threat to those deeply-held beliefs of supremacy.
- tptacek 3y ago
  I'd guess something like 50% of practicing Jews in the diaspora hold beliefs that Jews are intrinsically better than non-jews Whoah, wtf? I don't care what your background is: no, not OK. I had a relatively straightforward non-normative point to make about how controversial JVP is, which you can easily Google to verify. I wasn't even here to tell you you were wrong: you asked a question, it had a straightforward answer, I provided it. My answer was not out of left field: the ADL literally has a page on JVP, up in the first page of search results on Google. I'm not interested in litigating the intellectual vices of "practicing Jews" writ large.
  - Boatfaceing 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - pcthrowaway 3y ago
      I think Thomas (whose posts I overall have a lot of respect for) misunderstood my initial question as an indication of surprise at the mere accusation, and felt the need to explain why such accusations of anti-semitism are unsurprising. Read that way, I can see why he thought the ADL statement on JVP might be relevant and accurate (it certainly does accurately represent the views of a number of people within the Jewish community, though I think many also use the allegations of anti-semitism tactically to distract from legitimate criticism of the actions wrought by an attitude of ethno-religious exceptionalism). To be fair, as a descendant of Jewish holocaust survivors myself, I'm glad there's a high-profile group that makes it their mission to bring light to actual anti-semitism when it occurs, but unfortunately the ADL is influenced by actors I believe to be operating in bad-faith and has strayed from their mission in order to hand-wave away legitimate criticism of actions stemming from prejudice that exists within the Jewish community. The Jewish community is by no means unique here; there are elements of prejudice within every demographic, and I'd wager that a near-majority of practitioners of every religion have an attitude of exceptionalism, though Judaism is unusual in having religious practices very tightly coupled with an ethnic identity that often excludes practitioners of Judaism-the-religion who aren't considered ethnically Jewish, or are an unconventional kind of ethnically Jewish (see [1] and [2]). But I suppose to someone less familiar with the topic, criticism of prejudice that exists within a minority population can be hard to distinguish from prejudice against that minority population, so I can understand what seemed like a strongly oppositional reaction to my earlier post. If anyone is this deep in the thread and wants modern perspectives by well-respected scholars, Gabor Mate (a holocaust survivor himself) and Noam Chomsky (another Jew who has been unfairly accused of anti-semitism and holocaust denialism by the ADL) have spoken extensively about related issues. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_Jewish_communities#Jews_of_color https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_Jewish_communities#J... [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_Jewish_communities#Sephardim_and_Mizrahim https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_Jewish_communities#S...
r00fus 3y ago
> There are lots of white anti-white racists Sorry I think you lost the plot here. Can you give me a noteworthy example of such a person or group?
- tptacek 3y ago
  Seriously? You want me to provide examples of white people who make unjustifiable negative assumptions about the characteristics of white people?
  - r00fus 3y ago
    My point is that such people exist doesn't mean they represent anyone other than as an argument point. These people have zero influence or access to levers in politics. They are convenient idiots for the opposite viewpoint.
    - tptacek 3y ago
      We're talking past each other. It is obviously not my claim that most Jewish people are antisemitic.
- inemesitaffia 3y ago
  Google Gemini. See the person that posted here he'd find it odd for someone to request photos of a white family because white only families are sus