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Well, like any bike? By leaning into the direction you want to go in? Granted, this particular bike might take some heavy leaning to make anything like a turn,

Well, like any bike? By leaning into the direction you want to go in? Granted, this particular bike might take some heavy leaning to make anything like a turn, but for a snow bike, that might not even be such a bad thing, since... that's not what these vehicles are about in the first place?

alamortsubite 2y ago
Good luck leaning a bike in motion without turning the front wheel.
- hagbard_c 2y ago
  No problem leaning a bike in motion without turning the front wheel, all you have to do is shift your balance. It won't turn though, just go straight while leaning left or right.
  - Arelius 2y ago
    I mean, this is a bit subtle. With a fixed front fork, it's very difficult to get a bike to lean. It's just the case that with a free front fork, shifting balance may be enough to get the wheel to counter steer, which can initiate a deeper lean. Having said that, it's 100% the case that a 2 wheeled bike with rounded tires in a lean will turn. Just consider that the circumference of the tire shortens as you approach the edge, it must travel a shorter distance per revolution. so without sliding, it clearly needs to turn. In-fact, at speed, the lean of a bike is the primary factor that contributes to the turn.
    - hagbard_c 2y ago
      It isn't difficult at all, it is just a matter of hanging to the side of the bike while pushing it to the other side. Rounded tyres do not make the bike turn either since both of them lean at the same angle and thus have a similar effective circumference. The same happens when you cycle with a strong side wind, you'll lean towards the wind to keep the bike from being blown over. The way you enter the leaning position is different though since you're not leaning away from the bike, instead you (unconsciously) make a slight turn towards the wind to get the bike to lean.
- PreInternet01 2y ago
  Why "good luck?" I'm an avid biker (the manually powered type, mostly, but sometimes also snowmobiles), and most 1-20 (I guess?) degree turns that I make do not involve turning my front wheel at all (in the sense that: I don't move my hands consciously). Now, for wider turns, you do need to turn your front, but even then, it's usually in the opposite direction! Anyway, on snow mobiles, you really don't want to need your steering handles, as they don't control a wheel, but skis! And staying on the trail mostly involves reducing speed and, well, leaning. By the time you really need your steering handles, or your brakes, you're really already in trouble...
  - Arelius 2y ago
    > turns that I make do not involve turning my front wheel at all (in the sense that: I don't move my hands consciously). In all likelihood you are doing it unconsciously, generally, as one goes to initiate, say a right-hand turn, as you begin to lean right, you also apply a slight additional pressure to the right handle bar, which steers the wheel to the left, this initiates counter-steer which leans the bike to the right. With a stable bike, and a fixed front fork, it would be exceedingly difficult to initiate a lean significant enough to navigate most roads at the speed that we do.
    - PreInternet01 2y ago
      Nah. I have a cargo bike with a front carrier platform that allows/requires me to lock my front wheel when parking/loading. If I forget to unlock my front wheel, I can go about my ways just fine: it's just unpleasant. I also ride snowmobiles on a regular basis, and if you require any effort at steering (like at braking!), that's pretty much an error: you shouldn't need to do it! And that's even at 60km/h...
      - Arelius 2y ago
        I responded to your other post, but I think the confusion is mostly about considering different forms of bikes, and their respective weights compared to the rider. Also, I'll be honest I haven't ridden a snowmobile in so long that I don't really have a mental model of it. I'm interested though, Do you think they are a similar experience? Don't they normally have like many more points of contact?
calibas 2y ago
I don't think that's how a bike works. You pivot the front wheel to turn, the leaning is secondary. It's to counter centrifugal force so you don't fall over. Edit: I'm mistaken and didn't account for camber thrust which happens when "a point on the outer surface of a leaned and rotating tire, that would normally follow a path that is elliptical when projected onto the ground, is forced to follow a straight path while coming in contact with the ground, due to friction. This deviation towards the direction of the lean causes a deformation in the tire tread and carcass that is transmitted to the vehicle as a force in the direction of the lean." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camber_thrust https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camber_thrust
- stronglikedan 2y ago
  The leaning is the primary factor when it comes to turning a bike. It's why forks are angled forward, instead of straight down. You can even turn while keeping the handlebars straight, just by leaning.
- PreInternet01 2y ago
  No, I hate to disagree so unequivocally, but you pretty much never pivot your front wheel on a bike to turn! I have a cargo bike with a lockable front wheel, and even if I forget to unlock that, I can still drive, even though it's unpleasant. That unpleasantness mostly comes from being unable to turn my front wheel in the opposite direction before leaning in to the actual turn direction, though. This is on a manually powered bike, though, so maybe things are different on a motor bike? But I sort-of doubt it, since the physics are the same...
  - Arelius 2y ago
    I think, some confusion, at least mine, comes from comparing bicycles to motor bikes. I imagine you are right that initiating a lean with a bicycle without steering should be fairly doable. The confusion, is motobikes are much heavier, and with heavier wheels, maintain much stronger gyroscopic forces. So while I recognize the ease of your experience leaning a bicycle. It becomes much more difficult with a motorbike. Bringing this back to the original post. Looking at this thing, I imagine it'd be hard to properly lean it given what appears to be significant heft. Edit: To be clear, I mostly agree that it's the lean that's the primary factor in the turn. Just a subtle bit of confusion over how important steering is over initiating the lean in heavier bikes.
Arelius 2y ago
I mean, bikes are weird though right? They actually have multiple modes of steering. You're right, the standard mode is to lean the bike which causes the steering, however you generally counter turn the wheel to initiate the lean. Most bikes are much too stable to lean purely with weight alone. Secondly, at lower speeds and higher turning radius' bikes do in-fact steer with the front wheel, counter to their lean. Often encountered while navigating a parking-lot for example. I imagine an All-terrain bike is more likely to be needing to operate more often in this envelope however, so am also a bit confused on how it's anticipated to work.
- PreInternet01 2y ago
  Turning into a parking lot with a snow bike is quit feasible: you just need to go slow and plan ahead. And possibly back up a few times. Because making a 90-degree turn in snow really isn't any easier than on tarmac! Mostly, you'll use your snow bike to go fast (60-100 km/h, 40-60 mph), and you really want to plan your trajectory pretty well at those speeds. Using your handlebars, or your 'brakes' just isn't a realistic option! Sure, if you want to turn left a bit: lean heavily left, and steer slightly right. And vice versa. But making any sudden turns? Not going to happen, especially not with a passenger...

alamortsubite 2y ago

Good luck leaning a bike in motion without turning the front wheel.

hagbard_c 2y ago
No problem leaning a bike in motion without turning the front wheel, all you have to do is shift your balance. It won't turn though, just go straight while leaning left or right.
- Arelius 2y ago
  I mean, this is a bit subtle. With a fixed front fork, it's very difficult to get a bike to lean. It's just the case that with a free front fork, shifting balance may be enough to get the wheel to counter steer, which can initiate a deeper lean. Having said that, it's 100% the case that a 2 wheeled bike with rounded tires in a lean will turn. Just consider that the circumference of the tire shortens as you approach the edge, it must travel a shorter distance per revolution. so without sliding, it clearly needs to turn. In-fact, at speed, the lean of a bike is the primary factor that contributes to the turn.
  - hagbard_c 2y ago
    It isn't difficult at all, it is just a matter of hanging to the side of the bike while pushing it to the other side. Rounded tyres do not make the bike turn either since both of them lean at the same angle and thus have a similar effective circumference. The same happens when you cycle with a strong side wind, you'll lean towards the wind to keep the bike from being blown over. The way you enter the leaning position is different though since you're not leaning away from the bike, instead you (unconsciously) make a slight turn towards the wind to get the bike to lean.
PreInternet01 2y ago
Why "good luck?" I'm an avid biker (the manually powered type, mostly, but sometimes also snowmobiles), and most 1-20 (I guess?) degree turns that I make do not involve turning my front wheel at all (in the sense that: I don't move my hands consciously). Now, for wider turns, you do need to turn your front, but even then, it's usually in the opposite direction! Anyway, on snow mobiles, you really don't want to need your steering handles, as they don't control a wheel, but skis! And staying on the trail mostly involves reducing speed and, well, leaning. By the time you really need your steering handles, or your brakes, you're really already in trouble...
- Arelius 2y ago
  > turns that I make do not involve turning my front wheel at all (in the sense that: I don't move my hands consciously). In all likelihood you are doing it unconsciously, generally, as one goes to initiate, say a right-hand turn, as you begin to lean right, you also apply a slight additional pressure to the right handle bar, which steers the wheel to the left, this initiates counter-steer which leans the bike to the right. With a stable bike, and a fixed front fork, it would be exceedingly difficult to initiate a lean significant enough to navigate most roads at the speed that we do.
  - PreInternet01 2y ago
    Nah. I have a cargo bike with a front carrier platform that allows/requires me to lock my front wheel when parking/loading. If I forget to unlock my front wheel, I can go about my ways just fine: it's just unpleasant. I also ride snowmobiles on a regular basis, and if you require any effort at steering (like at braking!), that's pretty much an error: you shouldn't need to do it! And that's even at 60km/h...
    - Arelius 2y ago
      I responded to your other post, but I think the confusion is mostly about considering different forms of bikes, and their respective weights compared to the rider. Also, I'll be honest I haven't ridden a snowmobile in so long that I don't really have a mental model of it. I'm interested though, Do you think they are a similar experience? Don't they normally have like many more points of contact?

calibas 2y ago

I don't think that's how a bike works. You pivot the front wheel to turn, the leaning is secondary. It's to counter centrifugal force so you don't fall over. Edit: I'm mistaken and didn't account for camber thrust which happens when "a point on the outer surface of a leaned and rotating tire, that would normally follow a path that is elliptical when projected onto the ground, is forced to follow a straight path while coming in contact with the ground, due to friction. This deviation towards the direction of the lean causes a deformation in the tire tread and carcass that is transmitted to the vehicle as a force in the direction of the lean." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camber_thrust https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camber_thrust

stronglikedan 2y ago
The leaning is the primary factor when it comes to turning a bike. It's why forks are angled forward, instead of straight down. You can even turn while keeping the handlebars straight, just by leaning.
PreInternet01 2y ago
No, I hate to disagree so unequivocally, but you pretty much never pivot your front wheel on a bike to turn! I have a cargo bike with a lockable front wheel, and even if I forget to unlock that, I can still drive, even though it's unpleasant. That unpleasantness mostly comes from being unable to turn my front wheel in the opposite direction before leaning in to the actual turn direction, though. This is on a manually powered bike, though, so maybe things are different on a motor bike? But I sort-of doubt it, since the physics are the same...
- Arelius 2y ago
  I think, some confusion, at least mine, comes from comparing bicycles to motor bikes. I imagine you are right that initiating a lean with a bicycle without steering should be fairly doable. The confusion, is motobikes are much heavier, and with heavier wheels, maintain much stronger gyroscopic forces. So while I recognize the ease of your experience leaning a bicycle. It becomes much more difficult with a motorbike. Bringing this back to the original post. Looking at this thing, I imagine it'd be hard to properly lean it given what appears to be significant heft. Edit: To be clear, I mostly agree that it's the lean that's the primary factor in the turn. Just a subtle bit of confusion over how important steering is over initiating the lean in heavier bikes.

Arelius 2y ago

I mean, bikes are weird though right? They actually have multiple modes of steering. You're right, the standard mode is to lean the bike which causes the steering, however you generally counter turn the wheel to initiate the lean. Most bikes are much too stable to lean purely with weight alone. Secondly, at lower speeds and higher turning radius' bikes do in-fact steer with the front wheel, counter to their lean. Often encountered while navigating a parking-lot for example. I imagine an All-terrain bike is more likely to be needing to operate more often in this envelope however, so am also a bit confused on how it's anticipated to work.

PreInternet01 2y ago
Turning into a parking lot with a snow bike is quit feasible: you just need to go slow and plan ahead. And possibly back up a few times. Because making a 90-degree turn in snow really isn't any easier than on tarmac! Mostly, you'll use your snow bike to go fast (60-100 km/h, 40-60 mph), and you really want to plan your trajectory pretty well at those speeds. Using your handlebars, or your 'brakes' just isn't a realistic option! Sure, if you want to turn left a bit: lean heavily left, and steer slightly right. And vice versa. But making any sudden turns? Not going to happen, especially not with a passenger...