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> doesn't seem to be that big of a deal. Ok, it's a medium type of a deal, so? Why do you insist a worse way is better just because you personally don't care?

by eviks 3y ago

> doesn't seem to be that big of a deal. Ok, it's a medium type of a deal, so? Why do you insist a worse way is better just because you personally don't care? > straight grid of numbers for touchscreens not one heavily skewed to the side. Why would it be skewed? You use fingers completely different on a phone, so why would you expect the same form? > Also, the number pad keyboard means larger hitboxes for numbers to type them faster. And alpha keys are closer to your fingers so you can type those 4 numbers faster > There's also no real "home row" on a phone keyboard. There is, check where your thumb(s) "rest" when you type on your phone > instead of ensuring I'm on a keyboard or OS configuration This topic is about website input forms, what OS configuration do you need to visit a website?

vel0city 3y ago
> Why would it be skewed? Well you tell me my fingers aren't straight and aligning a number pad to straight lines is worse than skewed. > Why do you insist a worse way is better just because you personally don't care? I didn't say I didn't care. In my personal experiences it's worse. I've had laptops that had it, and it never felt good. Plus it was only on that one laptop, not my keyboard at school or work, not the keyboard at a friend's house, not the keyboard on my desktop, etc. > This topic is about website input forms, what OS configuration do you need to visit a website? So a keyboard layer that isn't labeled on your keyboard and is on some sites and not others and not on most other apps you use. Clearly the optimal way for the site to support as input, I'm sure it'll get lots of adoption in random two factor input code boxes. I'll definitely commit this pattern to muscle memory for the random site I encounter supporting this.
- eviks 3y ago
  > Well you tell me my fingers aren't straight and aligning a number pad to straight lines is worse than skewed. Yes, I also told you it's not a relevant factor for the phone (do you hold 3 fingers of different length on your screen touchpad? Skewed parallel to the screen so that rearranging buttons would fit it better??), yet you ignored it. Apples and oranges > In my personal experiences it's worse. I've had laptops that had it, and it never felt good. Which laptop allows using uio as 123 when in a numeric input field? > it was only on that one laptop, not my keyboard at school or work, not the keyboard at a friend's house, not the keyboard on my desktop, etc. Ok, so you didn't know how to do some simple keyboard remapping. How is this relevant for this conversation about an additional web input form option? > definitely commit this pattern to muscle memory for the randomsite I encounter supporting this. You don't need to commit anything, your memory can remain as blank as it is now with only some vague memory of something similar from your past, it would still work. Similarly, if it works in just 1% of input forms, it would still be an improvement... in 1% of cases. Where did you get and idea that universal adoption is a prerequisite from? Phone numpad-like mode doesn't work everywhere, still useful when it does
  - vel0city 3y ago
    > Ok, so you didn't know how to do some simple keyboard remapping This topic is about website input forms, what OS configuration do you need to visit a website? Dang you're being highly inconsistent here. Should this just be an input on a website or an OS level keyboard remap? You're being quite rude to assume I don't know how to remap keys. I know how, I just don't care keeping a keyboard map on me all the time and remapping everyone's keyboard just because I'd like to type numbers not using the number row. I'd rather just have the muscle memory of being fast with the number row. > Which laptop allows using uio as 123 when in a numeric input field? Not uio as 123, but that's not really emulating a computer number pad anyways as a computer number pad has 789 along the top. So not only is it skewed you're wanting it flipped from how normal keyboard numberpads are. FWIW it was a line of Dell Inspiron laptops in the late 90s and a Compaq laptop in the mid 2000s that had a number pad on the keyboard, however it usually reused the 789 along the top. It wasn't a massively uncommon feature back then, but it definitely wasn't on every laptop. Mostly on business focused machines from my experience. You're being incredibly hostile to me just saying I used that kind input before and personally didn't care much for it. I'm just sharing my personal experiences using that input you're suggesting for a couple of decades on and off. An input style that clearly wasn't popular enough to continue carrying forward on modern laptops despite being somewhat common decades ago.
    - eviks 3y ago
      > Should this just be an input on a website or an OS level keyboard remap? Up to you, I didn't bring all this irrelevant personal stuff up. Or instead of doing either you could bring up another one: faux inconsistency > to assume I don't know how to remap keys. No, I assumed you didn't > I know how, I just don't care keeping a keyboard map on me all the time and remapping everyone's keyboard just because I'd like to type numbers not using the number row. This is also hyperbolic nonsense, you don't need to do any of that (why would you ever keep a keyboard map on you at all???), keyboards you use 99% of the time is literally just a few of them, so remapping them is nowhere close to remapping everyone's > So not only is it skewed Which I've already addressed and you still couldn't respond. Your fingers are skewed, so ergonomic numpad wouldn't be linear > you're wanting it flipped from how normal keyboard numberpads are. Or I want it matching how (very frequently used) normal phone numpads are. But that's also an sidetracking nitpick since proper design would match whatever the use wants, so 789 would also fit > FWIW it was a line of Dell Inspiron laptops FWIW this is false, there were/are no such laptops, you're just too tied in trying to twist your personal story into some argument to address what I'm actually saying. Laptop is not aware of your input fields, so they can't dynamically switch to a numpad on the main alpha keys. And yes, they reused 789, so again, no laptop used an ergonomic no-mod numpad input mode. > just saying I used that kind input before and personally didn't care much for it. That's not all you're saying, and more importantly, that's not what I was arguing against since, again, how is your experience relevant this? Yet you keep bringing it up...

vel0city 3y ago
> Your fingers are skewed, so ergonomic numpad wouldn't be linear And yet the numpad people really seem to like is a straight grid. > That's not all you're saying My original comment was literally my personal experiences and the reasons why I had those experiences. > how is your experience relevant this? I used pretty dang similar keyboard layouts on several devices for over 20 years and didn't enjoy it. That's what makes it relevant. It's like you're saying, "chocolate is objectively the best flavor of ice cream" and I'm saying I've had it a bunch over 20 years and still prefer vanilla. And apparently it's not exactly a feature most other people are clamoring for, because while there are some laptops out there with that feature it is pretty much never a notable one. In fact, its such a non-notable feature you're telling me they don't exist. Instead, people who want a number pad choose to buy bigger laptops with a number pad laid out in a straight grid instead of dealing with the number pad mixed in the alpha keys. > FWIW this is false, there were/are no such laptops You're trying to gas light me saying laptops sitting in my closet don't exist and couldn't possibly work. Turns out Dell even has decently modern-ish Latitude laptops with this layout. And looking at my stack of laptops I even have an HP that had that feature as well. You're right they didn't know the input field, but you'd just hold fn with your left finger and suddenly they'd be number pad keys (or toggle fn lock or numlock or whatever for the specific model). https://www.computer-keyboards.com/laptop_keyboard_for_dell_latitude_7390.html https://www.computer-keyboards.com/laptop_keyboard_for_dell_... https://www.cpumedics.com/dell-pk130vn1a00-black-keyboard-us-layout-non-backlit-with-stick-point-for-latitude-e7440/ https://www.cpumedics.com/dell-pk130vn1a00-black-keyboard-us... I'm done here dude. You're being so toxic to someone just sharing a personal experience of using a keyboard like this and finding it not that great, to the point you're trying to gaslight me into believing these laptops don't exist. You're clearly not interested in any bit of a productive conversation. You don't need to get so angry and rude over someone sharing their experience over a keyboard layout feature.
- eviks 3y ago
  > And yet the numpad people really seem to like is a straight grid. I'm a "numpad person", and you aren't one of us, you "eschew numpads", so why do you speak on our behalf? Also, people like a lot of suboptimal things, so what? Like, you really seem to like all these non sequiturs and using personal experiences in place of addresing an argument. What does this prove? > My original comment was literally my personal experiences and the reasons why I had those experiences. And my original replies were literally about everything but. They were about how humeric row was worse due to having to stretch and how regular numpad isn't as perfectly ergonomic etc. > on several devices for over 20 years and didn't enjoy it. That's what makes it relevant. But how does it, specifically? You still haven't answered the original question about how your unwillingness to remap numpads on your friend's keyboard is relevant to a web form where you don't need to remap anything, veering off into some other snark > It's like you're saying, "chocolate is objectively the best flavor of ice cream" and I'm saying I've had it a bunch over 20 years and still prefer vanilla. More like me saying "your fingers have different length, so a design that takes that into account is more ergonomic" and you saying you have 20 years of experience eating chocolate > You're right they didn't know the input field > Not uio So why are you trying to gaslight me into believing they exist when they don't? > and couldn't possibly work. That's again something you've made up, it could work: you track active input field type and switch to a numpad mode if it's numeric. Just like phones already do > You're clearly not interested in any bit of a productive conversation. For that you'd need to start saying something productive instead of measuring anger over the wire
  - vel0city 3y ago
    > Not uio You're so toxically wanting to gaslight me you didn't even look at the keyboards in question to see that yes, they do have the choice to use uio as numbers. > I'm a "numpad person" And yet you thought the top row of a PC numpad was 123...
    - eviks 3y ago
      > you didn't even look at the I did, both of the links, you're just again "toxically" shifting your ignorance unto me and replacing substantive conversation with personal attacks > they do have the choice to use uio as numbers. No they dont, both pics start with 789 as the top, which is unergonomic (even for "pure" numpad emulation that requires shifting all the /*-+ signs to unfamiliar locations), that's underutilizing your most ergonomic finger/key. And I've specifically mentioned "uio as 123", so you're just openly disingenious now claiming any uio nubers are fine > And yet you thought the top row of a PC numpad was 123... That's your fantasy again, of course I knew it's 789 on an unmodded PC numpad, I was typing on a keyboard with a numpad! But I'm also not as limited in my perspecive as to think that whatever exists is the best thing ever and perfectly reflects the inner desires of the people, so I have a different remap, though that's a minor thing you're trying to blow out of proprtion because you can't address the substance of the other claims
      - vel0city 3y ago
        > they do have the choice to use uio as numbers > No they dont They do. Not 123, but "they do have the choice to use uio as numbers". I say "they do have the choice to use uio as numbers". You say they don't. I look at the photo, and they have uio as 4, 5 6. I guess those aren't numbers to you, only 1, 2, 3 qualify as numbers. This is why I say your responses are toxic. You're literally telling me here they're not being used as numbers ("no they don't"), when they are being used as numbers, just not the specific numbers you're wanting here. The keys being shifted one row up from your idea to include the zero and period in the number pad is pretty much an immaterial difference to me here. This is why I say "I used pretty dang similar keyboard layouts", note "pretty dang similar" not "entirely, exactly, 100% as you suggested". Ergonomics are often subjective and individual (not everyone's hands are the same!), but you're acting like what you consider ergonomic is just completely factual and unyielding and apply globally. The reasons why I didn't care for the numpad mixed in the keyboard's alpha keys wouldn't change if you shifted the rows around. All I've really been saying is I personally don't care for having numpads mixed in the alpha keys, and you're telling me those keyboards similar to your idea don't exist and berating me for assuming I'm too dumb to know how keyboard remapping works. This is why I say your responses are toxic. I'm really done here though, I don't think you'll ever accept there are keyboards that have uio as numbers or that other people have their own experiences with what is ergonomic.